Wait, are we a cult!?

Please note that this transcript is automatically generated and contains many inaccuracies

Disclaimer

Announcer: The Zooier The Now Podcast contains adult concepts and language and wrong think, and is intended for a mature audience. So if you think Hot Fuzz is a spicy discord channel and not a movie about a murderous neighborhood watch alliance, your accountability buddy will not approve. Better sit this one out.

Theme Song

Kynophile: Hey, what can I say?

You’ve got me howlin’ at the moon!

Whoa, don’t you know that love is wild when you’re a zoo?

We’re Zooier Than Thou!

Oh yeah!

Intro/Emails

Aqua: Greetings fellow zoos and welcome to another thoughtful and organized episode of Zooier Than Thou. I’m aqua, shiny and blue, and probably not stolen.

Tarro: And I am Tarro, here on short notice because Aqua was a jerk.

Kyon: And I am Kayan a helpful Doggie.

Aqua: See, well-oiled machine and we’ll be your host for this episode.

Tarro: is it still spooky season?

Kyon: We already had two spooky episodes in October.

Aqua: Yeah, but only because the moon wasn’t cooperating and one of them was just bonus goofing. And we’re recording this one before Halloween. And our topic. This episode is creepy, so yeah, I think it counts.

Tarro: Works for me. What’s everyone’s costumes? I’m going as, uh, Bette, the og NB icon.

Aqua: Excellent. am dressing up as the prime Radiant from foundation.

Kyon: In true Creighton hound fashion, I’m going to go as a ur.

Tarro: A mono tour. Is that different than a mini tour?

Kyon: It is a Ur.

Tarro: Oh, okay. Okay. You just, you pronounce that in an interesting way.

Kyon: words are hard.

Aqua: All right, time for some listener emails.

Kyon: Yeah, let’s do it.

Aqua: Alright, let’s go. First up from our listeners is Rowan the Red Husky riding in for advice on staying safe in the zoo community. Rowan writes, hi zoo crew. I hope you’re all doing well. Apologies if this is a question you get a lot, but I was wondering if you could share any additional tips on staying safe within the community beyond the wonderful opsec advice covered in the safety dance episodes, Specifically, I’d appreciate any guidance on recognizing red flags or common warning signs of abusers or other bad actors so I can avoid them more effectively. I don’t have any zoo friends, so I’m alone in navigating all of this. I’ve been a long time lurker for a few years now, and I’m excited to finally start participating more actively in the zoo community.

I also wanna make sure that I’m being cautious and informed. Honestly, one of the main things that’s kept me from engaging sooner is how discouraging it can be to see how common abusers and fetishes seem to be. I’ve taken steps like writing clear disclaimers in places like my Telegram bio channel, where I state that I don’t tolerate abusers, enablers, or bigots of any kind, and that I don’t want to be contacted by people interested in trading porn. I’m curious if there’s anything else I could do better in that regard. Thank you so much for all the work you do and for fostering such thoughtful discussions. It truly means a lot and has played a big role in my self-acceptance journey. I used to think that being a zoo meant that I was a monster until I realized that at the end of the day, I’m still me.

The same person who genuinely loves and cares about animals and their wellbeing. I’m not without flaw and I’m still looking to grow and change for the better, but I know I have full control over my actions and the choices I make in life. It’s okay to be myself. Kind regards, and lots of love, Rowan.

Tarro: Thank you for the email, Rowan. and yeah, it’s definitely a topic that comes up here and there. personally I think it’s a little bit less about completely avoiding bad people. ‘cause at the end of the day, it’s impossible to know who’s good, who’s bad without, getting to know that person in some capacity.

Anyway. More so about being committed to doing the right thing when people do bad things. So stuff like DNI on Twitter are useless. People don’t usually go, oh, I’m an abuser so I’m gonna leave this person alone. frankly it can be hard to tell because a lot of the times people just seem pretty normal at the start, unless it’s someone who’s like DMing you obviously being like, can I have dog porn?

But there are a few things that you can try to avoid. anyone that has a disregard for animal agency. discussing animals as like toys that they can play with. Or even like a disregard for your personal limits and boundaries, or an expression that they lack boundaries of their own.

All of those things are red flags to keep an eye out for.

Aqua: Yeah. we definitely have covered parts of this in past episodes. but for me, a major component is building trust. and it’s not something that you can just speed run. Uh, there are no shortcuts. It’s gonna take time with everybody that you meet and. One of the best ones for me, I found is like how a person talks to animals and or talks about animals and how they show the respect for them.

That’s a really good sign. I try to do more listening than talking, which is pretty hard. but there are some warning signs that I look for. I’m not attracted to self-deprecating humor in general. so if I see too much of that. like to me that’s an indicator that somebody is, conflicted, about their behavior or their sense of self.

I don’t necessarily like it when people use slurs or pejoratives, in an ironic or a sarcastic way. a lot of those words are borrowed from our adversaries. So that would be things like degenerate. I’ve seen goon fuel thrown around a few times,

no disrespect to gooners out there.

I see you. It’s not for me. But, goon fuel, as I understand it, is, like a especially crafted care package of porn, from one goon to another in order to fuel their gooning. Uh, so like, it’s,

Tarro: Is this a thing?

Kyon: Apparently

Aqua: yeah.

Tarro: Oh my

Aqua: It is,

Kyon: I that, the kind of thought you have to put into that is is, is very considerate.

Tarro: Kind of heartwarming.

Aqua: is. like if you know about Gooning,it’s like overstimulation from porn, to the absolute extreme. and that’s the point. It’s supposed to be overwhelming. and I, I understand the appeal. I think it’s just not something like, it doesn’t work for me. if somebody starts referring to, porn, featuring animals as goon fuel, like that kind of sets an expectation about how it’s meant to be used, which I’m a little bit concerned about.

Tarro: Yeah, I can see the red flags there for sure.

Aqua: yeah. And then just more generally, like what kind of porn is a person? did they tell you, did they share it unsolicited? but behind all of this,it’s important I think to accept that you can’t ever truly know anybody. Like you can’t know what someone else is thinking or how sincere they are with total certainty.

It’s just, it’s impossible. And that’s why it takes so long to build up a track record with them. You need a lot of evidence-based, support for how much you’re going to trust that person. and it helps to get to know the whole person, not just a lot about one topic in that person’s life.

And if there’s ever a day when something happens that you don’t like. You’ve got a whole person’s worth of understanding that you can take on balance, when you’re deciding how to deal with whatever the, whatever their transgression is.

Tarro: I think that’s really good advice.

Aqua: Got anything Kayan.

Kyon: as someone who has spent a lot of time hanging out in places like, pound dog sex on IRC, there’s a continual stream of, of who you describe the, uh, the fetishists, the people who just are interested people. a lot of ‘em are. they haven’t executed a lot of thought on the matter. they’re exposed.

When they come to a channel like that, they’re exposed to your culture for the first time. The culture of, the dog sectors and signaling back to them or signaling what the cultural values you have are around. This is The very first elements of them understanding and, understanding what’s appropriate in a spot.

some of ‘em will plow ahead and offer you porn and other ones will be like, pick up the what you’re laying down and be like, that’s not exactly the vibe I’m getting here. so if you’re clear about what is and isn’t acceptable, you just steer the conversation away from what isn’t right.

It’s that’s the way I see it. It’s part of like just being in a place and promoting the culture there that you wanna see.

Aqua: Yeah, that’s fair. and that has, as much to do with moderation as it does with. membership.

great question. Thanks for writing in Rowan. this is something that we think about quite a lot and, we’re always, adjusting our, our positions on this and adapting to what we see happen. I.

Tarro: All right. our next email comes, in regards to season seven’s. Bonus episode October. Surprise, death as a zoo. Eagle. Goldstein writes. Gerald wrote in with some questions about death as a zoo. It’s not something most of us like to think about, but it is something that I think we owe to our companions to plan on since they will be at the whim of others who might not care for them as we do, this is what I have done and I offer it as something to consider and build on.

Death is one thing we can all be certain will happen to us eventually. A few years ago, I had a will drawn up. I don’t have a lot of possessions and such, so it always seemed pointless, but it wasn’t until resolving my mother’s death and the ensuing chaos of conflicting things she’d said to people written down, multiple unsigned wills, that I really thought about the mess left behind when we die.

There’s always some chaos, and the best laid plans won’t remove all of it, but there are things that I think a zoo with companions really should do, Which is have a will. Even something very simple, which clearly defines who gets your companions instead of just leaving it up to others who might give your beloved companions to cousin Jimmy, who will tie them up in the backyard and neglect them.

Or worse, they’re euthanized because no one wants to hassle. Our friends do not have legal power to compel family to hand over companions unless we expressly grant them those rights in our wills. people will be confused and upset. They’ll make decisions you wouldn’t like. Make it easy on them and leave instructions on who it is to take your companions, make a list of the people you trust to care for them.

The more people, the better. That way, if your first or second choices can, they’re still a fallback. they can be other zoos, friends, people you know who are responsible and will treat you companions as you would, don’t leave it to chance. At the end of every year, I get out my will and related paperwork and review them, adding names of people who I trust, removing names of friends who passed before me.

I have some letters which go to the new caretaker explaining what my companions know problems. They might have release forms for veterinary records and other pertinent information. Make sure whomever will be handling the remnants of your life, knows these papers exist and knows where to find them. A will found while cleaning out your home months later is of no use to anyone. The easier you make it for everyone, the more likely your wishes will be respected. If you have some savings, don’t forget to will some of that to the designated caretaker to help them continue to care for your companions as you would.

If you don’t have something like that already, work on it just a little each year, adding missing details and updating contacts. At minimum, make a list of people to contact with their info so companions don’t end up somewhere they shouldn’t. You don’t have to do it all at once unless you think there’s a fair chance you’re not going to be around for the yearly review. For those of you with parents who are still alive, talk to them to see that they have done these things too. Death is a normal part of life, but it is very stressful for those who remain. Make it less stressful by laying out the important parts for them. as for some of the other issues brought up porn, sex, toys, and the like.

If you’re using encryption as you should, most of the porn will be unidentifiable data to whomever’s left. If there’s physical porn with or without sex toys, think of it as a final giggle for them to long last, have a hint as to who the real you was. They know you.

And no amount of dildos, penetrable, or lured artwork should have a serious impact on that. And if it does, did they even really know you at all?

I think that’s excellent advice. e Goldstein is, uh, regular, and picked up on some stuff that we missed when we were, uh, replying to Gerald in the last episode. and, the most important line here for me is, if you’re able to, willing some resources to whoever, your companion’s, future caretaker will be so that they can. Just to facilitate,the future care of your companions, to the standard that you want. Like really spell it out for them. here’s some money. This is for veterinary care and emergencies and for this expensive, animal feed that, they like. I think they’ll understand. but anytime money is involved, things get super messy. unless all the beneficiaries if they understand exactly what’s happening, and everybody’s cool with each other, and that’s rare. Yeah, even in that situation, sometimes it’s nice to have something written just to make everything super clear for everyone.

Aqua: yeah, you’re doing everybody a favor. If you just write it all down, I.

Tarro: that was my, favorite takeaway from this email is like, when you’re writing a will, it’s not for you. You’re gonna be gone. It’s reducing the stress that you’re putting on your loved ones, trying to sort through everything because if you haven’t had to go through it before any kind of death with a personal, like family member or like a close friend, it can get very, very stressful and messy, and it’s already a hard enough time for them.

So if you can make it easier. It. It’s just really thoughtful to do.

Kyon: I, it occurs to me to point out that, there are a million offers for term life insurance out there. If they’re not expensive at all. if you can afford to have a dog, you can afford five bucks a month. For a term policy, that doesn’t pay a lot, but for the upkeep of a dog, it can be quite a bit.

Yeah. Well, thank you, uh, so much for running in Eagle Goldstein and, yeah, appreciate your thoughtful response to that question.

Aqua: Really good. Kayan, you want to take the next two?

Tarro: Sure. just a joke this time from Red Rocket Ship Pilot again. I remember this guy. What’s a Kynophile favorite haircut? What.

Kyon: a top knot.

Tarro: I really appreciate that you read out this guy’s name like you were like the, the sheriff in an old Western saloon, seeing like a renegade ride into town.

Kyon: Ah,

Tarro: good.

Aqua: A top knot, huh? I hear that’s very popular with the furries.

Kyon: confirmed.

Aqua: Thanks for the giggle Red Rocket Ship Pilot.

Tarro: Feel free to keep sending in puns. I love this email format.

Kyon: From Halloween special 2025, Charles has written this. He says, Hey, zoo crew. I’d just like to extend my sincere appreciation As I sent in a small message about my dear Pablo and hearing in the latest episode made my day, it’s been rough without him around and to hear his name mentioned with the rest of the amazing people and four Legger friends and partners, it really made me feel like I’m not alone for feeling such a heavy weight of emotion.

Sorry for the long email. Love you all. Stay safe and stay healthy from a very, a grateful beagle Charles.

Aqua: You are most welcome, Charles. and that’s not a long email and you’re pretty good at writing ‘em,yeah, no problem there.

Tarro: Yeah, that was a very short and concise email. Thank you for that.

Aqua: The annual sa and the surrounding episode, we package it with, I think that’s the most important episode we do all year. like we put everything into making that one, and I think it shows.

Tarro: Yeah, it does make me cry pretty consistently every year. I’ve had my own submission to that and I do think there’s something very cathartic about, even if it’s just like with a podcast that you listen to and people that you might never necessarily know, just like getting to voice that grief in some kind of way I think is really important to being able to heal.

And as zoos, it can be really hard for us to find spaces where we can do that in the same way that sort of a more traditional relationship might not. so thank you for writing in and yeah, I hope that it helped.

Aqua: Next up, we have a short message from eggshell who refuses to communicate with us ever with like normal methods. So this is from,season seven, episode eight, the bonus. and the question is, do you also write poetry? Are you a long haul trucker?

Let us know in the comments or email us and eggshell replies yes, no. Okay, thanks eggshell.

Kyon: we never would’ve guessed,

Aqua: Very helpful.

Tarro: Yeah.

Kyon: it was asked

Aqua: It was asked, so we were asking for it.

Kyon: Yes.

Aqua: Our last email comes from Sheep Loves Dog. and, it’s about the whole show. Sheep Loves. Dog Writes, a plus No notes. Smiley face, uh, Zu crew. It’s sheep from sheep. Love’s dog on blue sky. Just writing in to let you know that this show has helped me unlearn years of speciesism and generally inspired me to fix my life for the better. starting to live my truth, even just in the privacy of my own home. Such a mind quake that I’ve learned being alive is not just okay, but now it’s actually starting to be fun. Not just that, but I’m going out and trying to network with other critters like us to build a safe and positive space for both myself and other zoos.

It’s unfortunate that the only online space that doesn’t actively bans is such a CS pit, but. The more we, both the podcast and zoos in real life, talk about it, the better it will be. I’ve talked about it so much that all my closest friends in real life know, and even my siblings, most non furry people, genuinely, genuinely don’t care.

and even if they do disengage, if they can’t accept your sexuality, then they don’t deserve to be involved with you. Advocate for yourselves and remember, critters, stay defiant.

Tarro: first of all, hey sheep. I am a big sheep fan. we talk a lot. So nice to see you on the podcast. Hello. I think it’s really awesome the impact that shows like this can have. and that’s why we keep doing it, right? we get lots of different messages from people, writing in to say that this podcast has somehow help them figure themselves out or change the way they look at the world or about animals.

and I just think. Those kinds of experiences, like that’s how I joined the podcast and joined the community in the first place as well. It was through the show. so it’s very cool to hear that it’s still having that kind of impact and it really makes it easy to stay motivated to keep doing it.

Aqua: we actually met by surprise, or by accident, I dunno, coincidence.

Kyon: Isn’t

Aqua: We didn’t plan it. no, not Arizona,

Kyon: Oh, huh.

Aqua: but, it so happened that we were in the same place at the same time and played Zoo Chicken for about 30 seconds and figured out who, the other person was, and that was great. I got to hear the whole story.

It was super great, and it felt good to, to know that somebody out there found value in our work and, was able to turn that into a, like a positive change in their own life. That’s awesome. sorry about your blue sky by the way. I noticed it’s gone. That sucks.

Kyon: Our gloriously curated set of emails, does not represent the totality of reality, but it’s the one we like.

Aqua: Yeah. it’s so good to have emails like that from people who like heard about us and then figured out how to make it work for them in a positive way. and this is a really good lead in to our topic this month. Uh, ‘cause dog knows we have critics.

Kyon: Yes, Doug does now.

today we’re going to be talking about cults. What is a cult? Are we a cult? That’s bad.

Aqua: Yeah, that would be shitty. I’ve wanted to do this episode for a couple years. ‘cause it’s a, for me, it’s a major component of my approach to presenting myself as a zoophile and how I organize with others and the sort of projects that I will and won’t do. But it’s a huge topic to condense down to an hour and deciding where it fits in with everything else that we’re doing.

that was a challenge, but we got there. So let’s find out if we suck.

Kyon: but first we have a word from our sponsors.

Tarro: So stay tuned for more easier than Thou right after this.

Sponsors

Announcer: Support for our Zooier Than Thou comes from the corporation for Interspecies amness. That’s the CIA and the letter Z as in zip. Doda. I’m deep in Doggie. Hoo ha. And listeners like you.

Topic - Wait, are we a cult!?

Aqua: Welcome back, fellow Zoos. Here we are again. All three of us to discuss whether or not. Zoophiles or Zooier than now a podcast. and all of its surrounding projects are a cult. Oh, man. I think, it’s a little hard for me to take this seriously, but I’m gonna, ‘cause eventually I realized it was actually important. but I think we’ve all experienced a little taste of this from somewhere or someone right in the last couple of years.

so at first we were called cult-like by a couple of anti zoo personalities on Twitter, but then I noticed, a couple of calls started to come from inside the house, like fellow zoos. were starting to complain of cult-like. Tendencies.

Tarro: I just, I don’t necessarily agree. so yeah, it, like for me, I don’t know how you feel about this taro or kaon, but like for me it was pretty easy to dismiss that as just bullshit or another day that ends in y at least from my vantage point, Yeah, I think it’s interesting because the idea of a cult is pretty nebulous, as I’m sure we’re going to get into, but I think it comes down to how you wanna define it.

Aqua: I guess I like, I want to just acknowledge that I have never seen a group of humans, especially not one that’s like trying to like, help each other survive under tough circumstances. Like, I’ve never seen that happen where there wasn’t some kind of internal conflict at some point or some disagreement it’s worth considering we get these accusations or these comparisons to like all these other things and, I wonder if maybe they have a point, are they just misusing a popular buzzword? like it’s easy to hate the word cult and everybody knows what it means, so they’re just tacking it on and hoping to like stir up trouble or I. Gain support from people who are uninformed. clearly, for some of them, it’s like it’s impossible for them to talk about zoophilia at all without immediately loading it by pivoting to some other dreadful thing. but I wonder if either of you think that some of these claims have merit, because I think it’s possible that they do.

Kyon: Brother Aqua,

Aqua: I knew inviting you was a mistake.

Kyon: much like, like almost every positive aspect of a religion is, identifiable in almost every organization of people that get together, you’re gonna find things that are similar. Yeah, that’s pretty inevitable. it may be, in a way, a sign of things that you’re doing right and not actually a problem, but that doesn’t mean you don’t share those characteristics with, worse situations.

Aqua: Fair.

Tarro: Yeah.

Aqua: dog knows there’s a crap ton of material out there, discussing cults and their features and their warning signs. so I spent a pretty long time digging up as much as I could and, turning it into something sensible and, Hopefully will help us, differentiate ourselves from a cult or take inventory and we realize, oh goodness, actually there are some issues here that we need to deal with. but anyway, let’s dive in and see what we find. the best place to start is gonna be with the, academic term, for a cult. because in anthropology it’s, it doesn’t really mean what people think it means or the way that people use it now.

Tarro: so the first resource I found that I thought was really interesting and helpful, was, actually another podcast called Psychosocial Distancing. it’s made by Dr. Thomas Brooks and, some of his colleagues, Dr. Brooks, by the way, is, on staff with first science now.

Aqua: He’s their sexologist,

and has

been for a few years.

Tarro: Oh, really? That’s super fun.

Small

world.

Aqua: anyway, episode 95 of psychosocial distancing is called, is the word cult Meaningless. And, they offered this nice breakdown of what it means in academic circles. I guess the simple way to put it is a cult it’s just a group with a shared belief system. It’s

a

culture.

Tarro: It’s not looking good for us.

Aqua: Yeah, not yet. but also it doesn’t have any of the doom and gloom,implications that like the mainstream definition of cult does. it’s just a group of people that have aligned themselves with some purpose and have some belief system,

Tarro: from what I understand, cults developed sometime after the idea of shamanism. but the nature of shamanism feels maybe a little bit too vague. there isn’t enough like actual organized belief systems in place to really make up what you might consider to be like a cult. and so later developments towards the idea of organized spirituality or religion, narrow it down to be a little bit more specific and be about solving the unknowns and having specific beliefs within your culture.

Aqua: Yeah. yeah, so like where shamanism would just be like a general attunement, in communion with, some natural forces, whether or not you can explain them. cults which came along later would be focused on like a specific concern, or

feature of the environment. something that humans don’t understand,and are trying to wrap their heads around,and do something with, so like the afterlife, there’s something very specifically scary about death. And so a lot of these early, cult-like organizations would have this shared belief about what happens after death. And, there could also be some like behavioral norms, that you’re supposed to follow as a member while you’re living. there’s a handful of others, that, appear to be pretty universal,this concept of reciprocity, or like the golden rule, basically treat others as you would prefer to be treated yourself. that’s basically everywhere. a lot of value placed on like helping the least fortunate among you. so that, everybody benefits ultimately, basically selfless features that are, are group oriented

Tarro: Yeah, it makes sense that, the whole sort of idea of a cult or even like a group of spiritual belief in those sort of early times was to create some sort of like social contract so that everyone could benefit or like come together and form a group that then serves to benefit everyone. Even from like a purely biological perspective, it makes a lot of sense why people would want to sort of put themselves in positions where they are a part of a group like this.

Aqua: Yeah. like it, it seems

cults that have this attitude towards selflessness would tend to be the ones that survive, during harsh periods. like a long cold winter or, maybe social pressure from, whatever society adopts them. if your first priority is looking after the group’s needs, and you can count on other people in the group taking care of you, then there’s a. there’s a chance you’ll make it.

Tarro:

Kyon: Certainly better than if you have a nihilist cult going on. Yeah.

Tarro: Yeah. Oh, I’m sure we’re gonna get there. Do you have a favorite kind of cult? Kaon.

Kyon: Fair. A dog. Dog cults, I think. Yes.

Tarro: Oh, animal cults You

Kyon: UhYes. Yes. There you go. could be the Great Goat. Great goat cult, right?

Tarro: Yeah, I mean, it’s kind of cool how, animals have played such a big role within human spirituality for such a long time. there were lots of cults based around animal symbolism and ideology going back, thousands of years. whether it’s, revering the animals that you depend on for sustenance and to help you survive in, harsh climates or whether it’s fearing predators that exist in the environment because, less, we forget there was a time before the internet where, you could just get eaten by a tiger.

Kyon: So there’s these, savior God cults. They often feature things like personal salvation, a guarantee of a good place in the afterlife. yeah, you do have to be a membership to join these. There’s some kind of ritual involved, like baptism or communion or both. there’d be secret teachings just for the members. And, there’s a common vocabulary to identify all these concepts and roles.

Aqua: Oh yeah,

we’re starting to describe stuff that sounds pretty modern now.

Kyon: and syn synchronistic, they modify their ideas to fit the culture they’re in. they,

Aqua: that’s interesting. Okay. So it’s not always, like adversarial.

Kyon: with culture, not. there’s always, I imagine when there’s conflict, they’re not, they’re going to bend to it When it’s too, when the winds get too stiff, they bend to it rather

Tarro: than, you don’t wanna lose your members because you’re not following the greater culture. You gotta be hip with the kids to get people to join your cult.

Kyon: they’re, they tend to be mono or henotheistic, a supreme god that they do.

They’re very individualistic, not about, all the group salvation. You gotta do it yourself, for yourself.

Aqua: Right. So you’re, you’re a one, one person or one piece in a greater system.

Kyon: yeah. But you have to take individual action in order to insure your own salvation. you don’t just go along for the ride.

they’re fairly cosmopolitan. they intentionally will cross borders like, race and wealth and caste and gender.

Aqua: And this is, this is done in the name of recruitment or like increasing membership.

yes, in a sheer direct sense, although I wouldn’t say that’s necessarily what their own culture thinks of it. they, they may be trying to help and such like that. but it amounts to the same thing, right? They may simply be exhibiting a selfless behavior. Towards others by proselytizing. it doesn’t necessarily have to be, oh, we want more members. This is by No, I’m trying to help people, man. Yeah. Or it could be part of the belief system. I need to do these things in order to secure my place in whatever is after this life,

Kyon: yeah, yeah, yeah. After this life or social signaling within your own tribe there, we’ve got lots of things like Christianity and Islam and all stuff like that uses a lot of these, savior god cult features.

Tarro: Guys, can I be honest? I think I prefer the animal cults. They sound more fun.

Aqua: Oh, for sure.

Tarro: I do think, the sort of idea of the Savior God cult, the thing that really makes that stand out to me from the animal cults and sort of the more ritualistic stuff is like the individualism that comes as part of it. ‘cause it is interesting to see how it’s all about attaining like personal salvation.

What you specifically need to like do the hoops you need to jump through to fit the criteria to make it. and I think that’s an interesting distinction that I had not really thought about before, between those two things.

Aqua: Do you think maybe it’s because, like the savior God, versions of this that are not animal-based have a longer outlook, like they’re looking past death.

Tarro: Yeah, it definitely could be. I think if you can convince someone that eternal salvation exists, then anything that happens before that point, it’s much easier to justify and like to convince people to do things that are suboptimal for their own benefit. so I could see that for sure. I.

Kyon: Or for the benefit of others that aren’t saved, you know?

Aqua: Okay. So in general then, like they, they seem to offer like a pretty common set of, of, I don’t wanna say promises or maybe possibilities. So top of the list is salvation of some kind. access to an afterlife or like a good position in that afterlife. Uh, if there’s like multiple possibilities. but as a group of people who are currently alive,there’s a, there’s like a communal feature there also where, as a group, they’re able to adapt and survive difficult situations,

then there is also, like a lot of emphasis on, trying to answer really big, scary existential questions that we don’t have answers to. and like, and if they can’t do that, then maybe at least offering some validation, of an unexplainable experience that somebody has or maybe a pathway to decoding it. you know, that to me seems like a pretty useful thing to have, as like a curious person who’s somebody who doesn’t know everything but is affected by stuff that they can’t grok.

Tarro: Grock, is this true?

Aqua: Oh no. Okay. I have to use a different word now. they’re affected by things that they can’t really explain because they don’t understand them.

Tarro: Yeah. for sure. And I think that’s a common theme with all spirituality is trying to understand the things that we don’t understand.

Aqua: And with it, of course, there’s probably gonna be a set of rules, right? so like with an emphasis on survival in the here and now, so that might be like social norms,like maybe don’t have children with immediate family members or like sanitary issues, don’t shit where you eat.

very subtle there, but

like just basic practices where, there is some underlying mechanism that. People understand is a problem, but the only practical answer is just don’t do this one thing and it probably won’t happen to you.

Tarro: Even higher order survival, things like, a great example is like the 10 Commandments, where it’s it basically just describes how to have a functioning society for the most part. Because if everyone’s going around killing each other and stealing from each other, it makes it really hard for that group to be able to stay as a group and get any of the benefits from that.

and so even those rules can be very like, akin to what we have today to keep our society functioning.

Aqua: Yeah. So the, another function would be just to maintain order,

Tarro: That ends up with, more of sort of a sense of community when everyone is following the same guidelines and they believe generally the same things. There’s definitely like a draw to that makes you feel like you’re part of a collective.

Aqua: yeah, so I, I can imagine, if you live in a group of people and you all have shared values and everybody has the same rule book that they’re supposed to be following, then that probably brings the, like the uncertainty or the tension or the paranoia, down a little bit when you’re interacting with somebody else.

‘cause you have some idea of what they’re gonna say and do.

Yep. Okay. what else then,

Kyon: identity. Oh boy.

Aqua: Yep. I bet part of that structure is going to be, status based within the group, leaders, followers, intermediate positions and things.

Tarro: Yep. It gives you a clear hierarchical structure. If you can position yourself as the front of this sort of movement, being able to explain what these rules are and establish those rules and then, you can set yourself up to have that position of power to be able to appoint your friends and to fellow positions of power.

absolutely it can be a big motivator for people.

Aqua: sure. and somewhere in there hopefully is a person whose job it is to adjudicate disputes, because there will still be some, I think that kind of brings us to like just this general idea of trying to minimize, interpersonal conflicts that would threaten everyone’s survival. and, and that seems to work for a while, right?

it’s always possible that there will be a big enough disagreement, about some rule or the way that something is being interpreted. and that can turn ugly pretty quickly. It might cause a split.

Tarro: Are you saying that the Christianity today and the Christianity of back then aren’t the exact same thing?

Aqua: we had two popes at once.

you have the Eastern Orthodox and the, Pope and the Western Orthodox Pope and Yeah. But that’s not supposed to happen.

Tarro: Yeah.

Aqua: I think we get one pope one at a time.

Kyon: it’s all silly. Silly to me.

Tarro: it just seems to be part of the way that humans naturally self-organize through a time. We have this sort of intrinsic need to understand the world around us and to also be understood by other people. Like we’re a pretty socially driven species as a whole. We have a lot of sort of creativity that we need to express.

and that can be really powerful when we’re trying to socialize with people who, we don’t necessarily have the same wavelength of, even just like art in general today is used to socialize.

Aqua: Art is, uh, like art can be a response, to like unacceptable conditions. You know, it can be social commentary, or it can be an outlet. if there’s no, uh, uh, if there’s no function in, in society that is working for you, then you might turn to artwork or you might turn to, Religion or you might turn to animals.

and just make that a feature of your creative expression. and try to find your way that way.

Kyon: I would say you, it’s a lot of signaling, right? We, one of the things about being zoo is trying to find other zoos without running a foul of the risk of the wrong person finding out. And one of the things about art is that it can be both zoo art and not like actually

Tarro: ar arguably it is just art as well.

Kyon: And it’s a great way to like,have that kind of half signal available, but not, being explicitly a disaster.

Aqua: yeah. Okay. So a piece of artwork could be. It could be coded so engender a response from a particular person or kind of person or some group. but I think we’ve known for quite a while now that, a specific artistic expression is not really a good indicator of what the person who made it is thinking at the time.

Kyon: it’s what they want to portray at the very least.

Aqua: and like part of that could be not explaining

Kyon: indeed.

Aqua: I see some pretty interesting parallels here with, fandom. like not just furries, just fandom in general, but definitely furries.

Tarro: and then the little subgroups that overlap with furries. So like therians, zoos of course, where we have a specific niche. An interest and attitude about a particular kind of expression or artwork or way of life. like none of this seems to be news. Like this is all just, this is all just people with Shared needs, shared ideas, shared fears, perhaps.

Yeah.

Kyon: People being people. Yes.

Aqua: so is the word cult meaningless,

Tarro: I do love the idea that, first suits are just the modern day equivalent of people putting on like big robes and like masks to meet up for like cult ceremonies.

Aqua: Yeah. It’s like our version of an Armani suit or

Kyon: It’s like a really big hat.

Aqua: Yeah. Like you gotta be careful when you invite a furry to a Sunday dinner and say, wear your best, you’re gonna get an animal costume.

Tarro: It’s tough, I agree. I think it’s interesting when you expand outside of the sort of spiritual kind of thing as well. there are lots of examples of things that could be like considered quote unquote cult-like. like one I would put out there is the military.

I think the military is a really good example of something that has an extremely cult-like structure.

Aqua: Oh yeah. that whole recruitment process. gosh, yeah.

basic training,

I know some people whose lives were legitimately fixed or improved dramatically by having that kind of, structure imposed on them. but I also know some people who definitely would not thrive in that environment and left immediately. this is not for me. you know, and there’s, different sides of it. There’s like the really strict hierarchy, and deference, to,people who outrank you and following orders even when they’re not legal.

,

Aqua: Okay. Yeah. So that’s a really clear example. and kind of a neutral one. like I can’t decide whether that’s good or bad.

Tarro: I’m gonna say it’s bad, but you can say neutral if you want.

Aqua: I don’t know if we would have a functioning army if we didn’t have that kind of structure.

Tarro: I do think that it is valuable for maintaining, for optimizing the efficiency of an army in a way where structure is really important. But I’m gonna, I’m gonna stick with that on that one.

Aqua: okay, fair enough.

Kyon: me,I’m pretty sure it’s all bad. as far as, efficiently killing people, that seems like a pretty, pretty solid bat in my book. hmm. I got some low hanging fruit. Apple,

Tarro: Oh,

like the company?

Kyon: Yeah. evil? Yeah.

Aqua: think about it. They had,they had Steve Jobs, until his passing. He was like a central, absolute authority figure, who’s his design philosophy and everything. absolutely determined product development and how things were sold

and made.

It’s not so clear who’s in charge of Apple anymore. I don’t think Tim Cook is doing so hot. there is definitely a cult like following. There are people who will only ever buy Apple products and will never consider using anything else.

Tarro: Yeah, even Apple’s ecosystem is a walled garden as they describe it, where Apple products are very much designed to sync with other Apple products to keep users in their ecosystem.

a big thing with Apple as well is the status of it, right? Like they pitch their products as a more high-end, artsy elite product compared to your typical, like other smartphones or other computers and whatnot. And I think a lot of the value of that brand is being able to say that you are a part of that brand, which fits in very well with that description you were using.

Okay. You’ve sold me

Aqua: Sense of belonging. Sense of belonging. Yep.

Tarro: Yeah.

Aqua: Lots of black and white thinking and a lot of people talking right past each other.

Tarro: The only black and white I like is the border collie.

Wow. I can’t believe you hate penguins. That’s crazy.

Aqua: Nobody hates penguins, man.

Kyon: birds.

Tarro: Wow.

Aqua: They’re really good birds.

Kyon: I suppose, but you know, Bo Collie are really good dogs.

Aqua: Okay, I’m gonna throw another one out at you that might be a little controversial

Tarro: okay.

What one more.

Aqua: parasocial relationships, I.

Tarro: Oh, like the way people are looking at like celebrities and influencers nowadays.

Aqua: Like it is the buzz word of the decade parasocial relationship.

And it makes sense, right? Because we’re all hiding behind our phone screens and just consuming things that are algorithmically fed to us by, shiny loud people on TikTok,but also celebrities like Taylor Swift, right? this is a new thing. I think it was, it was like first defined, in somewhere around the 1950s,

right? And it’s really, it’s just this, this false sense of closeness that a person could develop toward an authority figure or a celebrity over time.

Kyon: the asymmetry of the relationship where you may have spent, a thousand hours of your life absorbing this person and they have spent zero of theirs absorbing you.

Aqua: And it’s just as rough for them,

right? Because if they, if they make an appearance somewhere at, I don’t know, Comic-Con or something, they need security now

because they have fans that are so devoted and zealous, you know that they like that some people have like entire fan fictions built up, in their heads about their relationship with this person who’s never met them.

Tarro: yeah.

Shout out to the actors from, supernatural, who go through that shit all the time.

Aqua: Yep.

Tarro: the interesting thing about all the examples we’ve been giving out so far is that a lot of them are able to be engaged with in a way that is safe and healthy and can even be really productive.

Like you were talking about the military or someone who, produces a podcast on like an Apple product, or something like that, doesn’t necessarily mean they’re falling into cult behavior, but it’s the excess of these actions that can get into being really culty. There’s like a deeper level to all of it.

But it’s so interesting to see like where we’re talking about things like the military or apple and stuff. It’s the same kind of thinking that produces these other sort of more traditional kinds of cults. It’s just the motivation of the people behind it and the way that they choose to label themselves.

Aqua: yeah, NEX Im is another interesting one. ‘cause like that I think is unique in the ones that we mentioned here. And that was specifically. Like a self-help recovery cult,

and then somehow they got mixed up in human trafficking drugs.

so what’s the difference between a good cult and a bad cult? may, like maybe that’s not even the right words to use here.

cause I was thinking instead of good and bad, we would just call them like benign. and maybe like maladaptive or malicious.

Tarro: Yeah. I think that makes sense. the big things for me is Cults are all about control and about enforcing standards and whatnot like we talked about. That can sometimes be a good things. but if that control becomes exploitative and it ends up causing the people that ascribe to that cult to give up their own, freedoms or, resources or protection in order to service sort of the top end of the cult, obviously that’s pretty maladaptive.

Kyon: Resources are important,

right?

Kyon: even the podcast needs some resources to be able to distribute itself.

Tarro: Yeah. That’s fair.

Aqua: We’re pretty lean, but that’s

Kyon: yeah. But much thicker organizations out there still have a need for resources. it really is like nobody is,destroying their own lives by stacking money.

Aqua: not, you know, that’s the, it’s like when people are hurting themselves for the benefit of the cult. That’s the problem. it sounds like one of the big clues then when something is turning maladaptive or always was maladaptive, is how much agency individuals retain.

are you free to leave or can you disagree openly, or can you spend your money on something else?

there’s a lot of gray in there. Like you can, but you also forego the benefits of participating. ‘cause there weren’t benefits. You wouldn’t be member. now you’re making it sound like health insurance.

Kyon: kinda like that, eh, being a member of a community communities without any shared, belief structure around them tend to be very ephemeral. That based on physical proximity alone or something like that,

Tarro: Yeah. Okay.

Kyon: and they’ll disappear the moment, whatever it is that brought them together, disappears. Cults and organizations, religions and stuff have a lot more staying power because they have this religion, They have a meme set that they share, that keeps them together and allows, enables the further continuation of the group.

Aqua: So there’s that common vocabulary.

Kyon: Yes.

Aqua: Got it. All right. okay. at least if we’re following the anthropological definition, then everything is a cult and we should just give

up.

Tarro: So zoos are a cult. We’re saying it right here.

Aqua: hold on a sec.

Kyon: we do share some values, but that doesn’t mean we’re a cult.

Aqua: if zoos are a cult, then anti zoos are a cult,

you know, know,

by that definition.

Tarro: You are really keeping us on the toes here with this answer.

Aqua: Okay. I think the answer is no, but I’m not sure. So one, one thing I am sure of is that the definition that we just explained and went through is not the one that most people are using,

‘cause cult has taken on, like an exclusively negative, connotation, right?if you say something as a cult or a cult-like it, then. everybody knows what that means. It’s exploitative, it’s dangerous. it might be dangerous to people who are not members. Like the really big headline, destructive, tragic outcomes from cult participation.

So I’m thinking like Jonestown, uh,

Kyon: waco,

Aqua: Yeah.

Branch Davidians. Yep. I think that’s a good baseline, but that’s not the one that everybody else is gonna be using. what I found, when I went looking for all this was about 10,000 different listicles,

Tarro: you’re giving me content ideas right now.

Aqua: Oh, no. So what I did was I found a whole bunch of those and I looked for themes, and it turns out they all basically say the same thing. There’s like a. A list of things to look for that’s maybe 10 or 12 items. And,it’s like you might be in a cult if, and you just read through and, take an inventory, I guess. like the mainstream understanding of a maladaptive destructive cult is basically the following things. if the group is focused on a living leader, and the members are completely, totally committed and zealous, so that’s one. the group is, is preoccupied with recruiting new members or with making money. if the group punishes, questions or doubt or dissent. if the group teaches mind-numbing techniques, in order to suppress doubts or feelings, about the group or its leader. the next one is whether the group dictates in great detail how members should think and act and feel. So related to the mind-numbing thing, but it’s here are your rules to live by. the group has a polarized us versus them mentality. So there’s that black and white thinking again. and that causes conflict with wider society. So now instead of integrating or adapting to, like a whole society where, they exist inside of it, now they’re at odds with it. the next one is the group’s leader is not accountable to anybody. Not inside the organization, not outside. Although obviously outside there are still laws. but it’s structured in a way that their, their decisions and their behavior, is like unimpeachable.

Tarro: Mm-hmm.

Aqua: The group teaches that its ends Justify means that members would have rejected as unethical before they joined,

Tarro: Yeah, A change of moral sort of. Ethics.

Aqua: This is a big one. this is how a lot of cults, fund themselves. they get people to, engage in like money laundering or pyramid schemes.

Just actual pyramid

or they sell sham products or snake oil, or they charge their own members obscene amounts of money in order to attain like the next level of knowledge. Within the group. what’s another one? Okay, so the group uses shame or guilt to control members.

So if you step outta line, then it’s immediately a big problem for you.

the members, are required to cut ties with family and friends, and to give up personal goals and past times,

Kyon: I never cut the tie

Aqua: oh, absolutely derailed. Thank you so much.

Kyon: here to help. I’m a helpful dog,

Aqua: Oh my God.

Kyon: promise.

Aqua: oh. Yeah. And then the last one, that I saw basically everywhere is that members are encouraged or required sometimes to live, and socialize only with other group members. So total isolation from the outside world,

Tarro: Mm-hmm.

Aqua: you know, kind of similar a little bit. it’s distinct from that first one, and I guess the idea is like if you can, examine a group and then just go down the list and check them off and say, oh, yep, that happens. Nope, that doesn’t happen. Then you arrive at a score.

Tarro: and at some point you get worried. Would we say that, Toggle is our living leader?

Aqua: Toggle very specifically does not want to be in charge of anything. Like he is deeply uncomfortable with that possibility.

Tarro: Yeah,

Aqua: So, I mean, that doesn’t change perceptions, but yeah, behind the scenes, no. let’s move on to, an example of, of all of these mechanisms and action. ‘cause we found a video from insider authorized account, which we’ll link in the notes. and it’s a, an interview with,Arno MCIs, who was, one of the founding members of Hammerskin Nation out in the Midwest.

Also a singer in a Nazi metal band, who got involved with the skinheads and then eventually got out and is now working to help dismantle cults and has a whole bunch of really great insights.

Kyon: So, uh, Arnold MCIs, he talks about How they recruited people into the skinheads the, uh, great, aspect of grabbing them was to get them to fear, get them to be afraid. anyone who doesn’t think like you is a traitor is an enemy. you, try to find out what, how they identify,but then, if they’re white, convince ‘em to persecuted because they’re white. Identify them as white, and then use that as the way to, to invoke the fear. tell them the story. Oh,they see you this way. And, if you don’t join us, you’re gonna be, we are gonna be wiped out.

Tarro: Yeah, and I think the weir there is really important too, because it establishes them as part of that community in a way where they start to feel that sense of belonging, like we’ve been talking about with all these cult structures.

Aqua: okay. Yeah. So this is sinister,

right? See, like if we’re talking about white people in general, I remember him saying that like his job was, if he asked somebody, like a potential recruit, like how they identified, and they would say, oh, I’m Irish, or my family’s Italian, or, I’m Mormon, for example.

but like none of them would say I am white. So a recruiter’s job then was to get that person to identify specifically as white, like all of the other white people in the cult. and then convince ‘em that they were being persecuted because they were specifically white, not those other things.

I have seen this in action, and that gets like uncomfortably close to some of the rhetoric that, like some of our adversaries, have used,to increase support in, in their cause against zoophilia. But also like it gets a little bit close to some of the things that we’ve talked about here,

‘cause one of the things we try to do is get people comfortable with their zoophilia and get them to accept that this is like an integral part of them that can’t be cured and then go on to live the best life possible.

Tarro: we

also do talk a lot about the persecution that they face with while identifying with that label too.

Aqua: right? Okay. that’s interesting.

Kyon: right. the fear is amplified by the social turmoil. when groups are blaming each other,if there isn’t a division or, uh, something to conflict with, uh, invent something.

Aqua:

Yep.

Kyon: Straw men are great for this,

Aqua: yeah,

if somebody finds, an opinion or some behavior objectionable, but it’s not harmful, then they will invent a problem in order to persecute that person.

Tarro: Another thing I really found interesting from, that video that we’re talking about is the way that he sort of ended up leaving that ecosystem because, in his case, part of what drew him to it was, uh, he got into this sort of Nazi subculture when he was pretty young, and it was a lot about like shock value when he wanted to be punk and he wanted to get into fights and, you know, When you get older, when you develop a little bit more, it’s harder to sort of maintain that same sort of like, well, I just wanna go crazy and hit stuff mentality. and at one point he met someone through that group and they had like a kid, but then the wife ended up leaving and he was suddenly left with this infant daughter.

And, uh, he had to like really prioritize like, you know, what, what do I want my life to be both for me and for my daughter? And that was uh, something that forced him to rationalize a lot of the things that he’d already been kind of struggling with.

Aqua: Yeah. I think while he was in, he was also doing a lot of rationalizing for. His continued presence,

Kyon: Right.it was a constant, a heavy mental load to deal with, maintaining the, the, you know, essentially maintaining the avoidance of the cognitive dissonance, with alcohol and hypocrisy and constantly being angry and getting people angry, basking in, the righteousness of the struggle and the violence. Involved because when you’re doing that, you’re not questioning it. But it is exhausting, takes so much energy.

Aqua: Yeah. and I think part of that was also having status in the group, but not being able to square that with,like his real life failures and shortcomings. I remember him saying that most of the members were working minimum wage jobs.

Like they

just, they didn’t have any money. So everything that they had to fund was like split dozens of ways, with people chipping in whatever they could. but there, until they got involved later with, did they get involved with a church or did they form one?

Tarro: They got involved with another Nazi church that was, funding a couple different small groups.

Aqua: So that’s interesting, right, because like their group was not necessarily communicating or coordinating with other,other skinhead groups around the country. Although it did happen. That would be one case where it did. So like they found this other group that was more organized and had a little bit more money and they had their own requirements, like having to distribute a ton of leaflets and things.

but. Outside of that, their life is basically a dead end. And, that, I think the irony there is, feeling disaffected with one’s future prospects, especially when you’re young, that was the appeal originally. that’s what drove him, into the group. But ultimately, the disconnect between what the group was doing and the emotional and physical toll that it took, which was not helping, his financial situation on the outside, that just became too much to bear.

Right.

Tarro: Yeah, I mean I’m sure you probably have too as well, aqua where you are someone with a bit of a status within the zoo community at large. And I know for me, it is crazy sort of being part of an ingroup where I get to feel so much more celebritized versus being part of normal everyday life where I’m just me.

And that’s like normal. It can be really appealing and it’s easy to sink into that feeling and get really attached to that sensation.

Aqua: Yeah, so you can be like Supreme Puba of the Zoo Discord, but Monday to Friday, nine to 5:00 PM you’re just, sending TPS reports.

Tarro: Yeah. No, exactly.

Kyon: he goes on into how getting people out on preventing new membership, you gotta find, he says, you gotta find the pain point. That’s usually poor self-worth, apparently. and help build them up through some other mean than smacking people around or giving them boot parties. the, identify purpose and belonging shifts to somewhere else.

it occurs to me that’s a lot of what happens with, movement from gang to churches like churches are really pushing to use their purpose in belonging. set, however you might feel about that, to, to provide another place to deradicalize, the prisoners

that, yes. a place that gives a, community and support, right? You got when purpose and belonging. If you’ve got purpose and belonging, you’ve got it right. You don’t need to go anywhere. You’re fine.

he mentioned he was fi he found out the way out because, people were kind to him and they had no reason to be,people that he hated were kind to him.

And, that really made a difference to him. after all, all people want to be happy and safe and feel love.

Aqua: Yeah, what a mind fuck that has to be, to be in, in this organization that teaches, black and white us versus them thinking insider, outsider, Splits and starts like filtering or propagandizing information. but then having to go to work and work with, with people from every, background, black, white, straight, gay, all of it. and be shown kindness, right? Because those are the rules and expectations on the outside. And also just, generally good values.

Um,

and then having to take that back with you and go, that wasn’t so bad after all.

what? Something I found really interesting was that he talked about how when he was in the sort of neo-Nazi cult, they were really, really restrictive on the kind of media that they could consume. So like music books, they couldn’t go to the movies, they couldn’t do any of that. And once he got outta the cult, one of the first spaces he then went to was the rave scene, which is just so full of all different kinds of people and identities and colors and whatnot.

Tarro: It’s like the polar opposite of what you would expect from a neo-Nazi movement. And he absolutely fell in love with it. And he talked about the same things where he found community there, he found acceptance. He found people that were willing to, make him a member of their group, but without all the negative downsides that came with being a Nazi.

He replaced the things he was looking for from that, but with something that was healthier.

Aqua: I wonder if he ever met any furries.

Tarro: Oh, almost definitely.

Aqua: Yeah, Even if he didn’t know it.

There’s a quote from, Roseanne Henry, which I think neatly encapsulates this. Roseanne Henry is somebody who works in cult recovery. and they said when X members have had been pulled, at recovery workshops, they consistently gave the following reasons for joining their groups idealism, friendship, love, freedom, community mission, sincerity, salvation Enlightenment, and Spiritual High. and the idea is like people don’t join cults. They get involved in groups that they are led to believe, represent those ideals. And then there’s,the unspoken part is that there’s a deception, at the end of it. so yeah, this is,I can relate to a lot of what he says here. that aligns with some of the things that we’re doing.

we’re not trying to extract anybody from, from like a cult that they’re already in. really we’re just trying to be seen and to present an alternate viewpoint, that we have towards animals and the kinds of relationships that should be possible and allowed with them while also trying to encourage people to respect animals more in general and treat them more equally. and that is. Indirect opposition to the way that society currently views animals and uses them.

We do have opinions about animals and we like to share them and, and convince other people that they should believe that way too.

Tarro: Yeah, one thing that we haven’t really talked about that much, about the whole cult structure is the way that cults generally have so much more success. Recruiting people that are vulnerable, disaffected, disenfranchised. we were talking before about how the neo-Nazis had like minimum wage jobs, but people who tend to fall into cult-like thinking with exceptions of course, but tend to be people who just need to find, some way out who are down on their luck that don’t see any other sort of good paths forward.

Aqua: I see a worrying parallel with the disappearing middle class in the United States. I.

Tarro: Yeah, that’s a probably a fair call out.

Kyon: It certainly means that there’s gonna be a lot more vulnerable people.

Aqua: Yeah. I don’t want to get too deep into it, but, I think that is what, that might be the primary mechanism that led us to this point. we have huge disparities in wealth. we have a lot of very poor people who are not able to maintain even a basic standard of living. We have a tiny slice of people who are middle class, but at risk of falling out of it. and at the top we have a tiny handful of people who possess more wealth than what the bottom.

Kyon: Half, three quarters.

Aqua: it’s probably more than that.

so you’ve got all these people in the middle who have signed on to, like a promise or a future. Where, like a job that pays well, that enables a good standard of living, the ability to raise a family, all of that stuff is now under threat, if not simply impossible. I know firsthand that’s incredibly disheartening. and so all of that frustration has to go somewhere and there’s like a desire to fix it somehow. Unfortunately, there’s plenty of people out there, hoping that you’ll join them in whatever specific, version of America they wanna build. And a lot of them suck.

Tarro: Oh, absolutely. And as you say that, it’s tough ‘cause people who are in cults that are getting out of them, whether with help or on their own realizing they need to leave, are also super vulnerable for exploitation by other cults. it’s not uncommon to see someone who. Was part of one cult end, up being a part of another cult or another cult.

Aqua: And when we get into thinking about things like politics or some of the other things that were less, spiritually based, but still potentially cult-like, that can get into a really damaging and dangerous pattern. Oh yeah. Clawing yourself out of one hole and then just falling straight into another one, man. Yeah, you’re right. and in fact, I think there’s a whole category of cult-like organizations does like specifically set up for this purpose. like all of the recovery and self-help ones.

Tarro: It’s crazy that self-help as like an industry is so profitable just because there are so many people that feel like they need some assistance to get back on their feet, but so much of it is built around just turning those people into a profit rather than actually like giving them something that they can use to help themselves.

Aqua: And this isn’t to disparage the good work being done by actual cult interventions, and organizations that specialize in this, that’s very different. I hope it’s obvious when,when I say that I’m not talking about those organizations and their approach to it, which is provide a third space with some other activity and some other way to develop, your identity and your purpose and your belonging.

That doesn’t involve hating somebody else.

Tarro:

Aqua: You know that. I think that’s really the difference. if you’re trading, your current predicament, you. Where you’re being exploited, and required to hate a person or group. If you’re trading that for some other organization that is set up to hate the people that made you that way in the first place, that’s probably not where you want to be.

Tarro: Yeah.

Aqua: Alright. I think for the last part here, we should play, a little game.

Kyon: Ooh.

Tarro: Oh, I love

Games

Aqua: a very good game. Don’t, don’t get excited.

Kyon: Aw.

Tarro: Legends.

Aqua: Yeah. No, sorry.

Kyon: Not that kind of game. Maybe a puzzle.

Aqua: we started out with, like the mainstream bulleted list of warning signs of cults. But there are of course much more formal models in existence for this. It overlaps with the common points, but they’re also very specific. so one that I like and that I see used in a lot of places is the Byte Model,

B-I-T-E-I thought you might. so this,was developed by Dr. Stephen Hassen. he’s got a website set up for it. that’s, freedom of mind.com and, it describes mind control,and ways of, affecting a person’s behavior and judgment, in order to, basically subjugate them. the name Byte, BITE, those are the four categories and they are behavioral control, information control, thought control, and emotion control. we just go through this list real quick and see whether or not we can identify something about our own projects that aligns with, with something written here, with something that he’s describing,

Kyon: Oh

Tarro: Yeah,

when it comes to behavior control, for instance, I think as a community it’s very clear that we have certain kinds of behaviors that we encourage and certain kinds of behaviors that we discourage. and even if that is stuff that, I think the majority of people would agree with, at the same time, it is like a very big part of our culture to stand for some things and against other things.

Aqua: right? So I guess there’s gonna have to be a value judgment with some of these. is this beneficial? Is it benign? Is it maladaptive? Is it bad? Something like that.

Tarro: I mean, I think in this specific case, that would be a good thing, because of the context that we’re looking at specifically with our own group. like I think it is a very good thing that as a group in general, we are promoting things like,veganism or just animal advocacy in general, animal awareness.

And we are punishing behaviors such as, fetishism or, people who are just ISTs or like sadists.

Aqua: Okay. so where, what category do you think that falls under here?

Tarro: that is a behavior control.

Aqua: Yeah. I think what, let’s just go through them.

Kyon: Sure.

Aqua: behavior control, like 0.1. the group regulates an individual’s physical reality?

Kyon: No.

Aqua: Okay. the group dictates where, how, whom they associate or distance, where they live, et cetera.

Kyon: Nah.

we might have an opinion if you’re living with somebody who’s particularly bad, but not it’s

Aqua: my opinion is it’s really not my business. Who else? Somebody, one of my friends is friends with. like I might have an opinion if I see them getting hurt,

but, we haven’t formalized anything like that. maybe you could argue that DSI has an opinion there, but

Kyon: well.

Tarro: it’s pretty rare. Also, Mike isn’t here to defend himself,I would also

say the conversation around whether or not like certain subcultures within the zoo community or a cult is very different than is the zoo community as a whole occult.

Aqua: Right?

Yeah. So like, is one project or group like more at risk of cult-like behavior than the

Tarro: Mm-hmm.

Kyon: sure. And the fact that we don’t really have a formal member ship,

Aqua: we really don’t, I.

Kyon: it makes it hard to say that, are we dictating with whom they associate? if you come to a space that’s controlled by, there may be some pressure there, but it’s very loose. it’s not a good match, but it’s not a complete mess.

Tarro: I’d also say we don’t really try and,say who people do or do not have to have sex with. play around if you want, but it is certainly not essential,

Aqua: Yeah, but we’ve also had some pretty longstanding positions on things like fence hopping and mechanical safety of certain activities.

Kyon: definitely have opinions around sex in that regard. Yeah.

Tarro: I guess to me this reads more don’t have sex with these people versus don’t rape someone. like there, it feels more targeted towards like consensual acts, but you’re still restricting the behavior.

Aqua: Okay. Yep. what else? Clothing, hairstyles. No diet. a bunch of us are vegan. We wish more people were, but it’s not a requirement. Uh, financial exploitation or dependence? Not really.

we have some donors thank you, by the way.

Um,

but there’s no membership. do we restrict leisure or entertainment? we really don’t like it when people watch abusive porn. but I, that’s all I can think of.

Tarro: You are also, legally required to listen to every episode of zoo to be a zoo sexual that’s in the rules.

Aqua: yes, of course. How could I forget?

Kyon: it’s like the go to church, rule for, for the religious.

Aqua: Yep.

do major decisions require permission from anybody? Not

really.

Tarro: No,

Aqua: People just show up with an idea and do it, and then it’s either cool and good or it’s bad and sucks.

Tarro: there is one major time spent with group indoctrination and rituals and or self indoctrination, including the internet. You could maybe argue that one.

Kyon: uh, Yeah, but we’ve also advocated for putting the screen down and going outside.

Tarro: True.

Aqua: and we have worked hard to make our podcast shorter.

Kyon: it’s a good thing

Aqua: what else?

Kyon: Permission required for major decisions. No. Discouraging individualism and encouraging group think, nah, not

really.

Tarro: not.

Aqua: okay, but

it still creeps in.

Kyon: it does there. that’s unavoidable. Any kind of community that like, interacts

Aqua: again,

to,

Kyon: each other.

Aqua: I hate to bring up DSI again, because there are very good reasons. It’s structured the way it is, but,individual action is not really a thing that happens there. and groupthink is a persistent threat.

at least people are aware of it, but it’s still a risk. imposing rigid rules, eh, we have a few, don’t hurt animals.

Kyon: Yeah.

Aqua: let’s see. Do we threaten harm to family and friends?

Kyon: No.

Aqua: I think maybe a guy did that once and it didn’t go over well.

Tarro: Yeah.

Aqua: instilling dependency and obedience. I hope not that we’re trying to do the opposite.

Tarro: Yeah.

Kyon: yes, the opposite.

Aqua: So that brings us to information control, the i in bite.

so this is more propaganda and access to information related stuff. like just deception in general, do we withhold info or distort it to make it palatable? Do we rely to our members?

Tarro: No. If anything, I’d say we specifically try and, share information to make it more accessible,

Aqua: Yeah. I’m not including like the usual distortion field that is like the telephone game. and rumors like that sucks when that happens. but that’s not a zoo problem. Yeah. do we prevent access to non-Cat sources of information?

Nope.

Kyon: not at all.

Aqua: do we compartmentalize info into insider and outsider?

Kyon: All. No, not no.we have our research projects, but they’re publicly available and we’re not the ones who publish them.

Tarro: Yeah. Once again, it’s something we’re trying to promote, not something that we’re like trying to obfuscate or anything

Aqua: Okay. oh, do we encourage spying on other members? do we have a buddy system or do we like monitor each other? Do we report each other’s transgressions and things?

Kyon: To who?

Tarro: in severe situations, I’d say maybe, but not

Aqua: this one is a yes.

like there is, so there’s no body system, there’s no monitoring. But if somebody fucks up super bad, then as a protective measure, yes.

that will eventually. Make its way to somebody who can do something about it

and maybe get somebody banned from a group.

Tarro: But even then, I wouldn’t frame it as encouraging, spying so much as just like everyone keeps their head up.

Aqua: yeah, that’s right. So that’s not a feature, it’s not like we created a 9 1 1 kind of number. yeah. Okay. I personally would prefer that people, when they have a problem, they address that directly and immediately with the person in question or maybe sought advice from local friends

first. , Let’s see, what else? do we have unethical use of confession? no.

Tarro: No.

Aqua: No. As if anything, people overshare

Kyon: Yeah.

Aqua: sometimes it’s delightful.

Kyon: Yeah. It’s you could stop now.

Aqua: okay. Thought control. do we require members to internalize doctrine as the truth? So that’s black and white thinking again.

Tarro: I would say we do some of this, but the require part is

Kyon: I’d say more like pressure.

Aqua: Yeah.okay. So I am remembering, there was a private telegram group that had an application, but that doesn’t really, that’s as close as I can think. We get to this, but it wasn’t. it wasn’t a requirement. It was like a basic ethics check.

here’s some questions, answer them so we can get, some idea of like your value system and decide whether or not you’re a good fit. I don’t think that counts. I think that’s just basic community management.

Kyon: Yeah, a lot of this stuff is gonna overlap with good community management.

Aqua: let’s see. do we make people change their names?

Tarro: I would give this one a maybe as well.

Aqua: for safety it might be a good idea.

Tarro: I think if someone joined the community as like their name with a picture of themselves, I would not wanna welcome that person into the, like i’d, that’d be a lot of red flags.

Aqua: I would be trying to trick the AI into writing a poem. but if it was obviously a person, I would be like, homie, you need a, an alias and you need some furry art or something.

Tarro: So you.

would say, we do encourage people to change their names and identity.

Aqua: but it doesn’t replace your actual identity.

Kyon: right. We’re not

trying to isolate them from their, world. We’re trying to keep them from being harmed by the world.

Tarro: tell that to my, furry Twitter account that hasn’t had a tweet on it in six months.

Aqua: Oh, dear. Yeah. That sounds like a work life balance problem.

Kyon: Obviously too much work. Not enough

tweeting. What about, what about thought stopping techniques? So Chanting or affirmations or singing, good thoughts only, that kind of stuff.

Tarro: definitely don’t do that one.

Aqua: We have a lot of musical talent.

Tarro: We do

Aqua: Yep. Hey, the songs are about zoo stuff.

Kyon: Che,

are you howling at the moon?

Aqua:

Tarro: I also don’t think all of those songs are,meant to be thought stopping or whatever. There’s some pretty sad zoo songs out there too.

Aqua: That’s true. okay. What about affirmations? right on the front page of the podcast website. you’re not sick. There’s nothing wrong with you. You deserve love. Are those affirmations?

Kyon: Yes. But I think,

Aqua: I think they’re affirming.

Tarro: yeah, affirmations feel like a mantra that you repeat to yourself, whereas that’s just like a positive thing to feel.

Kyon: But you could repeat it to yourself if you thought that was valuable.

Tarro: You could,

Kyon: Mm-hmm. not

Aqua: Yeah,

Tarro: as part of the subculture.

Kyon: True.

Aqua: okay. do we, do we forbid or reject criticism? Definitely not.

Tarro: No,

Aqua: I’ve given basically everybody on this project a whole heap of shit. I’m still here,

Kyon: Go

figure.

Aqua:

I get it. I get it Sometimes

Kyon: oh, that’s good. take some of what you dish out. Yeah.

Tarro: and similar to that, I don’t think we have any rules about challenging leadership or doctrine. that’s that’s the opposite of what we want, I like to think all the people that do have any sort of quote unquote positions of social power are also people that are very approachable and who love to get that criticism and stuff.

Aqua: Yeah. like we take listener feedback for a

reason.

Okay. So that brings us to the last category, which is emotion control.

Kyon: Alright. So, do we work to narrow the range of feelings, that members have by. Deeming some of them as evil or selfish or wrong?

Tarro: sometimes I’ll give that one

Kyon:

Tarro: half point.

Aqua: Yeah. The, I think there’s maybe some application here for the zoo sadism, stuff.

Tarro: I

even just bism itself, like the, just being like I’m quietly lustful towards animals outside of sadism specifically, I think is still portrayed as wrong or selfish.

Aqua: okay, yeah, I’ll buy that. do we teach emotion stopping techniques?

Uh,

Kyon: I am

not therapist.

Aqua: have yeah. we direct other people to resources if we can, but I think one time we had like a meditation or a breathing exercise. Early on in the show, and that was very relaxing. That was nice. But it also wasn’t particularly Zoey. oh, do we make all the problems, in the organization the fault of an individual? Never. The leadership.

Tarro: no,

Aqua: Yeah. I think that is a firm, no, I think we, we excel at, holding ourselves accountable.

Tarro: do we promote feelings of guilt or unworthiness,

ask,

Aqua: identity?

Tarro: if you ask non-vegan, they might say yes.

Aqua: That’s fair. But, I have tried very hard in the way that I talk about being vegan to not load somebody up. not cause somebody to feel guilty about not being vegan.

There’s plenty of reasons to not be vegan. okay. do we instill fear of independent thinking or the outside world? Do we invent enemies or cause people to fear the loss of salvation or being shunned?

Kyon: I mean, there can come points where you’re like, dude, stop it or kick you out of the channel,

Aqua: Yeah, I don’t think we, were never offering salvation. That’s an, absurd,

Kyon: true. Uh,if you know any dogs, you could probably get some salivation though,

Tarro: Depends on the dog especially. Wow. Some of ‘em are really salivates.

Aqua: so,

we are pretty clear about identifying social mechanisms, that work against us that we are trying to improve. I guess that qualifies as enemies

Kyon: to a degree,

Aqua: maybe. but the outside world isn’t something to be afraid of. That’s where we all are. being shunned is interesting, because that is a function of DSI that happens. It’s maybe not supposed to be as effective as it has been on occasion. It’s really just being kicked out of a group. but we have seen a couple of cases where there have been real world, consequences for people who have, been sanctioned.

Tarro: I think that’s an area where we can improve.

Kyon: It’s hard to predict real world consequences sometimes, but yeah, I agree.

Aqua: it is, but you can also see

it coming,

anyway, I’ve made it very clear to basically everybody how I feel about that. So I will now move on. extreme emotional highs and lows. Love bombing brutal shaming.

Tarro: Definitely not that one.

Aqua: Yet this is interesting because we have specifically been accused of love bombing in the past.

Kyon: bombing.

Aqua: yep.

Kyon: look this up. Sounds, it. Sounds awfully good.

Tarro: it

Aqua: it

Tarro: the idea is,

where you

just give someone so much affirmation, so many compliments. You really just tell them they’re the world, they’re incredible, they’re amazing, just like nonstop. To get them the endorphins that you’re giving them. Really attach them to you.

Kyon: Oh, I see. Yeah.

Aqua: okay, so this is not like Mr. Rogers stuff.

Tarro: No.

Kyon: Yeah.Because I think that’s basically where we are. again, we want people to, learn to accept and, live within their means and, and their sexuality and their personality as, as fully as they can. that seems fine. I don’t think that’s love bombing. yep.

Aqua: and that brings us to the last one on the list, which is public ritual Confession.

Tarro: No.

Aqua: that’s a no.

Kyon: Yeah. Yeah. yeah, it’s very, don’t have all that many rituals.

Aqua: Yeah. Like there isn’t even a lot of public shaming, like that would be, that would be like the 50,000 word Google document,with a 25 minute preamble of, like that’s not

us. We see that happen a lot. But I can’t think of any examples where someone has done that. and it wouldn’t go over well,

Tarro: So what’s the consensus? Are we a cult?

Aqua: if we’re using the first definition from,Dr. Brooks maybe, but definitely not using the modern definition.

Tarro: Yeah. I think out of all of those we had a handful of maybes and maybe one, yes. So I’d say we’re doing all right.

Aqua: Yeah. there’s, there are some areas of concern, but there are fixable.

Tarro: And like they’re ones that some of us are already aware of and have already been pointing at and going, Hey, actually this is crap. we should correct it. so no, I feel pretty good about this. I guess the, like the takeaway from all of this now is like the warning signs of cults and cult-like behavior. whether you’re using like this formal model or you’re using like the pop culture one,like they aren’t the list of things. It is not magically different from stuff you encounter in daily life. that’s these are just extremely highly exploited versions of. like social pressure and economic pressure,and other things that everybody feels every day, all the time, to some degree.

Kyon: Yep.

this is just a malicious form of stuff that we live with anyway. indeed.

Tarro: hundred percent. Yeah.

Aqua: okay. All righty then.

so what sets us apart,

Tarro: I would say for us, we’re pretty aware of the fact that we don’t know everything. We’ve mentioned that a couple times. We are constantly looking out for, insight from experts. We’re looking for new data. I know a lot of people in the community have read way more research papers on the subject of animal welfare and stuff than the majority of other people I know.

and generally speaking, if new evidence comes out that forces us to change how we’re looking at things, we will.

Aqua: yeah, so I think the term for this is epistemic humility. this general idea that we have to be really cautious about things that we assert as factual, when they may not be that well supported, uh, and they may not be permanent. Uh, they could be upended or modified by future information. So like, just being aware that what, like knowing that you don’t know, I think is, uh, is like the easiest way to explain this. that’s where we are as, as zoos right now. we probably all think that we know ourselves pretty well, and we

okay, but I think you know yourself better and, taro,

Kyon: for sure. I’ve spent a lot more time with me.

Aqua: Okay. It’s close.

So we, alright. But we know ourselves, right? And one of the things that we try to do is help other people to understand themselves better.

but we really don’t know a whole heck of a lot about zoos at large. We know something about our friends and our social circles and the projects that we work on, but there, there isn’t a lot of data about zoos globally. so that’s one of the, one of the areas of like curiosity and a lot of effort. trying to open up avenues for new research so that we can take stock of who’s here and why. and that’s, that’s not something that’s ever happened before, but it’s something that I really enjoy working on.

I.

Tarro: Yeah, I would say, also the community sort of as nowadays is a little bit different than the way it was maybe five, 10 years ago where, uh, we’ve talked a couple times on the show about mutually assured destruction and the way that sometimes people would be invited into the community is to share parts of themselves that they wouldn’t necessarily want out, so that if someone goes down, they can bring down the rest of the group.

and we’ve made significant steps to get away from that, and more towards a trust-based system where people can be more comfortable to be a part of groups and not have to pay some sort of admission fee of personal identifying information to get access to the community.

Aqua: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. replacing, fear and paranoia and dirt with methods to establish trust. and just accepting that it takes longer by design,like that is how we end isolation. if other cults, especially maladaptive ones, seek to isolate members in order to exploit them, we are trying to do the opposite. we don’t dictate who to be friends with or who to tell or who not to tell. We encourage people to tell somebody close to them and then someone else and someone else, so that you can build up a safety net, a support network around you. Who are not zoos,

Tarro: right? because that is part of the identity, purpose, and fulfillment, requirements, right? if you can, if you can build a safety net or an, and a support network for yourself and you can feel belonging, it doesn’t really matter whether or not, the people that you surround yourself with who accept you are zoos, or if they’re not, most of them are not going to be. Yeah. I guess other than creative work, like one of the points I want to make is we’re not inventing our own shit here. we’re not churning out textbooks and There’s no religious text for the Zoo Doctrine.

Aqua: Exactly. Uh, there’s no rule book. there’s, you know, an outline of values and reasons why they exist and why perhaps you should consider following them. but there’s so much, disagreement about, individual pieces of it. Like, again, being vegan. I hope that more people are vegan, but I’m gonna be realistic about it because it’s only a few percent of the population at large. these things are just available to people who are interested in them,

but we’re not forcing it.

Tarro: We’re generally starting from a position of, animals first, animal focus, and then, trying to encourage people to understand animal rights and agency and give them more respect than they might have otherwise. teach them maybe like caretaking principles. and you know, on more like a personal human level Also, teaching people to live their best lives with self-acceptance and finding acceptance in others.

we’re not. Trying to ascribe a belief on anyone. So much as we are just trying to like present who we are as a community. And if that resonates with people, then that’s awesome.

Aqua: Yep. Agreed. yeah. And, everything is free, at least it’s supposed to be. I guess maybe you could sell stickers, but Steve doesn’t, he’ll just mail ‘em to you.

Tarro: Yeah, every, everything is free other than, epiphany, pipeworks, excellent bonds, which are worth the price.

Aqua: that’s true. we do have some merchandise.

Tarro: No.

Aqua: Nearly everything is free. And the stuff that’s not free, it does not convey status or special access or anything else. It’s just, it’s a bong that looks like a horse cock

Tarro: Yeah.

Aqua: that is its own reward and

punishment.

Kyon: that’s a conversation piece all by itself. it’s wonderful.

Tarro: I don’t know. I think going through everything like this and laying it out, I think there are ways that you could ascribe the idea of cult like to the zoo community, but in the same way that you could ascribe cult like to any group of people that exist. And I think, when we really look at who we are, what we do, what we believe in, we’re not, I like to think that we are hitting much more of the positives than missing a lot of the negatives that would make us more of a cult in the negative.

Kyon: I Yeah, I agree with that.

but it’s also, it’s something I think that requires like maintenance,like we can’t do this evaluation once. are you a cult? Not today.

Tarro:

Aqua: yeah, like this is fine for now, but every time something new comes along, it’s worth a look and, Some consideration

whether or not it’s something that should have happened or if we’re all satisfied with our response to it. or if it’s got a weird smell about it,’cause we have had a couple of projects and a couple of people come through and then leave,that have not really contributed quite in the way that we wanted them to.

Tarro: That’s a very polite way to word that I.

Aqua: it is.but you’ll notice those people are all gone. And it didn’t take long for us to come around to realizing, oh, this is going in a direction that is not okay. and then we handled it. Alright, I’m convinced not a cult. Yay.

Tarro: We did it. Woo.

Kyon: Okay, so will you join us for the, uh, ritual anointing of Salivation

Aqua: Oh, by the way, it is very on purpose that this came right after the SA win.

Kyon: Uhhuh?

Tarro: appropriately timed for sure.

Aqua: yep. And next month’s episode also fits in very well with this. So with the timing.

Kyon: Great.

Aqua: Alright, friends, thank you so much for putting in the time to do this research with me and have this discussion.

I hope that it puts everybody at ease, but also gives them a clearer understanding of, what to look for, as we forge ahead.

Tarro: I mean, this is a, uh, a fun topic. It’s something that I think is really interesting and, uh, as a queer community that is looking to grow, I think it’s important that we keep these things in mind.

Aqua: Yes indeed.

Outro

Tarro: Thanks friends for listening to Zooier Than Thou.

Aqua: Our next episode is on Friday, December 5th, and it’s all about zoos who are thriving.

Tarro: It’s bound to be uplifting, so don’t miss it.

Kyon: You can subscribe to the podcast via our Zooey RSS feed. Just point your favorite podcast client at rss.zoo.wtf. You can also check out our extensive bonus content at bonus.zoo.wtf. If you want to show your support financially, head on over to donate.zoo.wtf. Find us on blue sky at, you guessed it, @zoo.wtf.

Tarro: Our podcast website hasn’t changed, and you can find a form there that enables anonymous submissions to the podcast. You can also simply email [email protected].

Kyon: Share this podcast with someone who’s setting life goals and wants to see how it’s done.

Tarro: I am Taro and I’m gonna go eat leftover Halloween candy until I throw up.

Kyon: My name is Kyon, and I’m gonna join Gonzo and start a chicken cult!

Aqua: I’m aqua and I’m definitely not wearing a tiara that I found. And you’re almost finished listening to Zooier Than Thou Stay Defiant Fellow Zoos. We’ll see you next time. You feel like howling at the moon.

All: Awoo!