S8E1 Oops! All Emails! 2026

Please note that this transcript is automatically generated and contains many inaccuracies

Disclaimer

Announcer: The Zooier Than Thou Podcast contains adult concepts and language and should therefore not be listened to by anyone. Side effects may include panting, salivation, increased vaginal lubrication, zeta waves, and an elevated sense of empathy for all animal life. Discontinue listening to Zooier Than Thou if your knot remains engorged longer than 30 minutes. Ask your veterinarian if Zooier Than Thou is right for you.

Theme Song

Kynophile: Hey, what can I say?

You’ve got me howlin’ at the moon!

Whoa, don’t you know that love is wild when you’re a zoo?

We’re Zooier Than Thou!

Oh yeah!

Sponsors

Zooey: The Zooier Than Thou Podcast is proudly sponsored by the Corporation for PUP-lic Broadcasting… the letter W for winking mares… and by listeners like you.

To help support the podcast, head on over to DONATE.zoo.wtf. That’s donate.zoo.wtf, and send whatever you can. Your donation helps support the Deliciously Zoo programming you enjoy each full moon.

Intro/Oops! All Emails!

Aqua: Greetings fellow zoos and welcome back to Zooier Than Thou. This is the first episode in season 8!

Steeeve: Yay.

Aqua: How about that!

Tarro: Yay for us. We did it Team.

Aqua: Yeah, definitely. this is gonna be a chill one everybody. as you know, over the course of a season we get a ton of email and then we pick a few for every episode that kind of matches the discussion and the hosts. And we always have this big pile at the end that didn’t really fit anywhere, but we still wanna answer ‘em ‘cause it’s still super fun to do.

So that’s what this episode is gonna be all about. It’s just email.

Steeeve: Oops! All emails.

Tarro: I love our email episodes. It’s fun to like connect with the listeners and answer some of their questions.

Steeeve: they really pile up.

Aqua: So we, we have some good ones this time too. they’re all good, but I like this patch.

Steeeve: Sure.

Aqua: Aqua still shiny and round and blue and still

here. And that’s good enough.

Tarro: I am Taro and I took this week off to play the new Resident Evil, but everyone else called in sick too, so I guess I’m here.

Steeeve: And I am Steve. Spread thousands of zoo stickers across the whole globe.

Aqua: And

we’ll be your host for this episode.

Tarro: Hooray. Are we gonna get started then?

Steeeve: First up, we have a message from Asian in Portland. Taro, you wanna read that one?

Tarro: Sure. Asian and Portland writes, dealing with my attraction and need slash wants. they say, I have been into this for about five years myself. I grew up in a very traditional family in society, in Asia, so having all these feelings and desires has left me conflicted. To be honest, I don’t know if I’m strictly zoo attracted at the moment, but my wants and needs shift greatly at times.

Should I accept myself and my newfound desire and embrace this community and what it wants and stands for? I have yet to tell anyone about my attraction and secretive fascination of zoo, and I’m feeling morally and socially conflicted in this regard. I’d love some advice on what I should do if I do wanna continue this lifestyle.

I’d love to delve deeper into the community and meet like-minded people in a more socially acceptable setting. thank you for the time you took to read this Asian in Portland. .

Aqua: All right. I don’t think you have to know for sure. and I think it’s okay if later on you decide it’s not really your thing. that just happens. we have this space where people can be, if they think zoophilia might be a a thing for them, but it’s not like a club you join only if you’re for real.

Like the purpose, I hope, is to help people decide that, with, supportive people around them.

Tarro: Yeah, I just think that personally, labels are really overrated. if Zoosexuality and being a zoo is something that you’re thinking about, I’d really recommend the best thing you can do is try and just meet other zoos, talk with them, learn about their experiences, you know, share your own.

it’s extremely normal to be curious about things, especially when it comes to sexuality. I know. a lot of the times people will talk about, trying out some gay stuff in college or whatever, and then deciding it’s not for them. That’s like a trope here about all the time. It’s very normal.

don’t be afraid to explore and just see how things go and how you feel.

Steeeve: Yeah. And, as long as people are alive, they’re continuing to learn and learn about themselves and,exploring new ideas is just a part of the human experience. as opposed to. Saying that there’s like a definite destination of, 100% understanding.

And if you’re not there, you’re nowhere is, I think, unhelpful. Whereas if you see it as like a continual process that’s always happening, then you don’t have to feel that you’re falling short of some kind of unattainable level of zoo Nirvana, right? you are where you are, you’re learning all the time, including about yourself, including about your attractions and your friends.

And, if you find that you drift along organically toward the community of zoos and, animal attraction, then maybe you’re in the right place. I don’t know. but there’s no wrong answers. You just follow your conscience wherever it leads. And there you are.

Aqua: Yeah. if there’s one lesson that I’ve learned personally doing this show and everything I did before the show existed, is that, not talking about this stuff openly and, with as little judgment as you can possibly find, like not talking about this stuff doesn’t help anybody. It just creates more shame.

that doesn’t serve your interests here. so that’s one of the things that I love about, doing things like the podcast and having, some online groups and communities that have been built up around this and similar projects is. A lot of that really didn’t exist. I mean, something existed, but not as much.

And like it’s totally okay to change your mind. I think one of the things that people worry about when they’re joining a group like this is that they’re gonna end up making friends because of how they identify before. They’re sure about it, but then they’re gonna lose them if they change their mind and then they feel like they’re gonna get stuck. I guess just be honest with yourself about the experience that you’re having. ‘cause you might find a group and learn a few things about yourself, learn a bunch of stuff about them. maybe you don’t gel so well. is that something you can fix by? Finding a different group of people to hang out with, but hanging on to the idea that you might be a zoophile or at least adjacent to it, I don’t know.

Is it a reason to write off the whole idea and move on with your life? It could be, it really, it’s so community dependent and the communities that I like really don’t want anyone to feel pressure to join or pressure to

stay.

Steeeve: Yeah, that sounds healthy.

Tarro: Yeah,

Aqua: It really isn’t that different from joining another, community based around some interest.

Tarro: it is so easy in the digital age to just make a burner account, give something a shot, and just see how it is. So there’s really like.No real cost of entry to at least give

it a shot, you

Steeeve: Yeah, it’s just your time.

Tarro: Yeah.

Aqua: Yep. There’s a few safety concerns that you should consider ahead of time, but I think plenty of people listening are used to the idea of having, a throwaway account. we’ve had Reddit for, what, 20 years like a throwaway account over on Reddit as a tradition. So, you know, if you decide you need to pull the rip cord and it wasn’t the right move, that’s okay.

it is possible to exit gracefully without burning down the bridge. and it’s not really your problem what people think of you when they notice you’re not there

Tarro: Yeah.

Great

answer.

Steeeve: thanks for writing in Asian and Portland. we hope you find the community and or self-awareness and acceptance that you’re looking for. Next up, we have a message from Zoo Grounds. Aqua, do you wanna read this one?

Aqua: Zoo Grounds writes. personally, I think the K Zoo interview episode deserves a spot on the essential episode list. I may be a tiny bit biased since I love hearing stories from the early zoo community, but I also believe that’s why it deserves the spot. The first thing lots of folks read when they open this website is you are not alone.

There’s nothing wrong with you. You are worthy of love. And honestly, I feel like there is no better way to support that fact with some old stories that really cement the fact that this community has been here for a long while and won’t be leaving anytime soon.

if there’s been meetups and stories to tell since the early nineties, they certainly aren’t alone. The way these stories are warmly told, like it was just some regular casual thing, proves that there’s nothing wrong with their attractions. And of course, if all these people had both non-human and human partners, that must mean that they’re worthy of love. Just my opinion. Of course, no idea which episode you should take off the list. I don’t think we need take any

episode off the list. I think we should

just

Tarro: Yeah, I feel like there’s no limit to the amount of episodes that can be really, really important. And I definitely think this is one of them. I know for me personally, one of the coolest parts about getting involved with the zoo community is being able to meet other zoos in real life. And as much as the internet is great and it’s an awesome way to get your feet wet at the same time, there’s really nothing like being in a room full of other zoos who all share the same secret.

it’s really healing in a way that I personally was like not prepared for the first time that I got to experience it. It is so hard to feel like you’re alone when you’re in a room filled with other people that have the same beliefs as you. it’s

Steeeve: Yeah, for me it was exactly like being in kazoo because I was in kazoo for two and a half years, from 1998 to 2000. And there was, some of those dinners that we had in the East Bay area where, there would be like 35 zoos there just crammed into this tiny house. It was like a little two bedroom house, overlooking San Francisco from the hills in the East Bay.

And, People would bring their dogs and the bigger dogs would run in the backyard with my dog and my pet goat and the guys with little dogs, sometimes they would just be like wandering around underneath the table and we just sat down to a normal dinner and it was exciting because there were people from every walk of life and every kind of job.

There was a cop there who happened to be a zoo, or at least he worked for the police or with the police, but we’re like,we think you’re a cop. and everybody else, there was a professional dominatrix hosting the dinners and cooking a lot of the food.

And then I was a mechanic at the time and just everybody was there, A lot of it people from South San Francisco and everyone got together and shared a meal and it was awesome. We did that for two and a half years, almost every month. Wolf was organizing them, rest his soul. and it was great.

it was some regular casual thing, and it did feel like, and seeing everybody there that there was nothing wrong with their attractions. and a lot of us, including myself, did have non-human and human partners. so it, we emphasize this a lot, but. Meeting in person. there’s really no substitute for that.

And, it does make you feel like you’re worthy of love and you’re not alone. that really is the message of the podcast.

Aqua: And by the way, zoo grounds the, the text on the website. You are not alone. There’s nothing wrong with you. You’re worthy of love. That’s actually there. Specifically because of another Kal Zoo member that I got to meet a couple of years ago. And,we stayed up all night talking, about all kinds of things.

And, some of the topics were pretty heavy and some of it was just casual bullshit. But, this point of supporting other zoos and, helping them contextualize their attractions and start to accept it and then work with it instead of against it, that was really important to him. And it,it struck a chord in me too.

So it wasn’t long after that I suggested, to our,website maintainers that we add some similar text to the landing page, just so that was one of the first things people read, and everybody was on board with it. Like, why wasn’t this there

from the beginning?

Steeeve: Yeah,

Tarro: Yeah, it’s definitely a great

message to put

up.

Aqua: Thanks for writing in Zoo Grounds. I’m guessing there’s a new grounds reference in

there,

but

Tarro: my

guess at least.

Yeah.

Aqua: that website. I miss it. I guess I can’t say I miss it. It’s still there. I just don’t go there much

anymore.

Up next we have one from Peppermint Swirl with a heartfelt message from an

advocate.

Steeeve: Peppermint Swirl writes, I talked with you guys a few years ago over email, but I still feel right now in my saying that what you guys do is right. You guys are very brave individuals and I have the best respect for you guys.

My question for the host is, tonight or today, whatever time you do the stream, what are your views on narcotics? Do you have favorites or do you abstain from them? My go-to is MDMA and DXM. I will always support you from a brony side of the fandom. Every single pro zoo has been nice to me compared to the aunties, so the aunties can go bleep themselves.

is M-D-M-A-A narcotic?

Tarro: It depends on your definition.

Steeeve: Yeah,

Aqua: No, these aren’t, neither of these are strictly narcotics. but for anybody listening, MDMA is ecstasy, sometimes called Molly, and DXM is dextromethorphan. It’s one of the ingredients in cough syrup. okay,

we’re not

drug experts here. At least I’m not. it’s not a it’s not a drug podcast we’re, it’s a zoo podcast.

yeah. So personally, I don’t take a position on substance use except that you should do it with a really clear understanding of its effects and its risks.

And you should also be super clear about what it is you’re taking. I really advise against as strongly as possible combining, these substances with,human animal, intimacy, if if that’s what you’re asking about. yeah. Don’t do that. You have, I think you have too many responsibilities to your partner.

If you’re intoxicated while, while being intimate with them, the risk goes up of making a mistake and getting injured. I think you owe them your best judgment and for that you need

to be

sober.

Tarro: Yeah.

personally I think drugs can be really fun, although, I’d cosign that you really have to understand what it is that you’re doing and what you’re taking. I really enjoy doing mushrooms every now and then. Just the way to sort of like recenter myself and just take an evening to think about where I am and like what I’m doing.

I also quite like MDMA, especially when it’s combined with sex with other humans, to be clear. but yeah, just make sure that before you do any kind of drugs you like, really take the time to learn the effects, the potential side effects. also just get an understanding of your body, right?

if you’re someone who drinks coffee and gets really jittery, maybe avoid stimulants that are gonna be that effect. But like times 10, also in general, just try to avoid like mixing drugs and give yourself plenty of time between trips to let your body reset. Because I think once you start to acclimate to a drug, it encourages you to take more and that can be unhealthy.

also just like, you know, stay away from anything that’s too addictive. But yeah,

personally,

that’s my view. I think

they can be fun.

Steeeve: So just adding on to what we were saying earlier about not taking drugs and then having sex with animals, and also, referencing earlier our mention of Kenneth Penon, AKA Mr.

Hands, I had occasion to speak with a person who took that viral video and that wasn’t the session where. Mr. Hans was injured fatally. That was a that was a separate session after that wasn’t videoed. But by all accounts, he was alcohol impaired and then didn’t really follow his own risk profile and had receptive intercourse with a stallion and then was perforated and didn’t wanna seek medical attention for obvious reasons.

And, and succumb to his injuries. So if you’re doing anything that’s gonna impair your judgment or especially your ability to feel out the,the physical and mental state of your animal partner, then you should definitely not do whatever drug that is in conjunction with animal intimacy.

Super bad idea. I.

Tarro: Yeah.

Aqua: Yeah. MDMA in particular because it makes you so sensitive and so empathetic, that to me sounds like a particularly risky mix with a non-human partner because it might make you even more prone to misinterpreting what signals are giving you. but yeah, just another note about synergistic effects for some of these things.

I took a minute or two to look for information about combining Molly and Dex, and the general takeaway is that it’s a really bad idea. it worsens hyperthermia risk that is overheating, hypertension, so dangerously high blood pressure, possibly serotonin storm, which will just kill you. and it’s also that combination is also super hard on your liver because the same enzyme is responsible for, for breaking down the, the, chemicals.

also, Dex is a really common adulterant in MDMA. So unless you’re absolutely sure the purity of, what you have, you could end up taking a lot more than you plan to without realizing it. And that sucks. So I personally would never combine these.

Tarro: And drink lots of water.

Aqua: Please

be careful.

and save that

Schiffer the dance floor.

Steeeve: All right. Thanks for writing in Peppermint Swirl. Next up, we have a message from a bunny

Tarro: A bunny writes in with the subject changing as a person they write. A few years ago I wouldn’t even think of sending a message like this. I was transphobic and zoo phobic, and I would’ve cut off anyone who said that they were a zoo tomy. But now I’m a gender as well as a zoo. Honestly, I’m so much happier after starting to accept these parts of who I am And for the little bit of time I was on zoo Twitter, it was one of the most friendly spaces I’ve ever been a part of. To be honest, I’m considering coming back. It’s amazing to change as a person and realize I shouldn’t be ashamed of my attractions.

Aqua: I’m so happy to hear about this progress. we already said it once, but it’s just gonna keep coming up over and over again, not talking about this stuff. Especially difficult stuff, not just zoophilia anything. It doesn’t help you, it doesn’t help anybody. It just creates more shame. We see examples of this again and again, and there’s a few voices out there right now who are getting it right consistently. so you remember last, it was two seasons ago, wasn’t it? I think it was two seasons ago. we did a project with, Ashley Hamer Pritchard, who, is the, creator behind Taboo Science.

that whole series was about kinks and Lias, and it ended with the same message. And this season she’s doing an en an entire season about transgender issues and it’s. Awesome. It’s so good. It’s everything the New York Times can’t

do. I can’t think of a stronger endorsement. So when you’re

done with us, go listen to that.

Steeeve: She was amazing. I loved being on her show. We all felt treated really fairly It was

great. Check her

Tarro: I didn’t realize she put up more

episodes. I’m actually legitimately

very excited to go and

listen to that.

Steeeve: it wasn’t

just the zoo one.

Aqua: you’re gonna love it.

Tarro: I listened to all her, her kink stuff, but then she took a pretty big break between that and I guess the new stuff. I didn’t realize.

Steeeve: Oh It’s what I get for not liking and

Tarro: subscribing. really common for people who are a thing to present against that thing as a way of trying to push those thoughts and feelings away. And it’s something a lot of people do, even subconsciously, there’s a lot of zoos who had a year of being a anti zoo before accepting themselves and, and yet it takes a lot of courage to be able to challenge your internal bias like that.

Steeeve: So good for you. A bunny.

Tarro: Yeah. And if you do ever join Zoo Twitter again, send me a DM or something. Say hi. It’d be cool to, see that you came back.

Aqua: Thanks so much for writing in Bunny. Alright. Up next we have Vic, writing, an uninspired email. Maybe? Yeah, maybe. Nah, maybe Vic writes,

It’s been quite a long time since I wanted to send you an email and since I lacked the time to say the things I wanted to, I postponed it again and again. Did it change now? No, but I’ll write something anyway. I’ve been listening to Zooier than Dao.

Every time I have to drive somewhere, I really like the format and it’s always a pleasure to listen to you all talking over every topic throughout the episodes.

The last episode, oops. All emails 2025 there. See, this is a tradition. kind of helped me through posting because I figured in the end these emails are a way for people to express themselves more or less anonymously to their liking actually, and you all giving some time to go through them and answering them directly.

Give them some level of importance that some listeners may need to hear because they relate to what that person was saying, and I think it’s a great feature of the podcast. Thank you for doing that.

Yeah. By the way, if this is, inspiring you to

write in, please do.

Tarro: We have a contact form on the website. Check it out.

Aqua: Okay. Two of it continues to change the topic. I’ve observed that quite a lot of people around here discovered their zoo this at a rather young age. While for my part, I came to it post majority, which so far looks quite uncommon. I don’t know if there ever was any survey regarding the age people considered starting to identify as zoophiles.

I, for the longest time thought I was asexual, even though at the time I never came across that term. I only started having feelings for dogs when one of them came to live in my house. And even that, I didn’t come across the Zoophilia word until years later. Learning there was actually communities around changed my life forever and for the better.

It’s good to feel that we are not alone. Anyway, I’ve taken enough of your time already. I wish you all the best and sending hugs to the zoo team. Maybe see you at e Euro Friends.

Sincerely, Vic.

Tarro: hi, Tik Vic’s the best. really cool. I actually do have data on this, that is gonna be coming out soon. But, on average people find their first attraction to an animal, usually around the age of 13 to 14, which is actually a little bit later than typical puberty starts.

But, it, it’s interesting to see how that works out. but people don’t actually label themselves as a zoophile usually until 17 or 18. which I think comes down to just not having a word to describe a thing that you don’t know exists. so yeah, you’re definitely a little bit later if you’re into your twenties, but for me, I found my attraction pretty early on as well.

but like also I happened to grow up in a house with a dog and, I think it was much easier to be in that situation and say, wow, like I can see this dog all day. I really like them. I’ve attached to them in like a way that I think it’s different than how most people do. so yeah, I think you do have to come across it.

It would make

sense that it happened for you when you had a dog live with you as well.

Steeeve: I think one of the fields in the Hanni Melky dissertation work that she did in the formation of, understanding bestiality in Zoophilia, where she did ask what the first age is that you discovered that you were a zoo. for me, I knew I was attracted to animals at like. Six years old had my first animal experience at like 10, and then encountered the community and the terminology that I would need to understand that I wasn’t alone and I was part of something bigger by the time I was maybe 17.

So, you know, it’s, it’s in range,

Aqua: Yeah. there actually has been a fair amount of research in this. Most of the stuff that I found points to zoophilia merging around the same time as Archy, which is like just before the onset of puberty as we know it. But plenty of people, myself included, show the signs of an orientation earlier than that, even if there’s no sexual component yet, because we just lack the words, and the experience.

And that’s the,that’s the question now about how much of this is nature? How much of this is nurture that is, is there a genetic component? Is it an environmental cause during gestation or childhood development or some other event in life is a trauma? it’s probably all of those things to some degree. what I have been doing about this, ‘cause this question comes up fairly often, I just look at other paraphilia research and, you. I take the opinion, that Zoophilia is an orientation for at least some of us. and if, if you start from there, then you realize it aligns really pretty neatly with all of the other research that already exists that’s not about zoophilia.

And, I find that comforting and reasonable. I don’t think there’s really much difference between Zoophilia and all the others.

Tarro: Yeah,

Aqua: Thanks for riding in from Vic. It’s great to hear from you.

Steeeve: Next up we have a message from

e Goldstein. Again, subject veterinary care Topics e Goldstein writes, I was wondering if you’d ever consider doing an episode or bits on some common ailments that we need that we tend to encounter Mostly thinking of informational bits and preventative medicine. I’ve taken care of a few different species over the years.

Canines, pore signs, bovine equines. I’m not claiming to be an expert on any of them, but I try to be well informed, at least on the parts I can manage myself. I find it handy because not only does it allow me to give my companions better care, and I’m better prepared in case of an emergency, but it saves me money too.

It’s not always easy learning about this stuff, but I think it’s very important. Good resources for people just getting started are books such as Dog Owners Home Veterinary Handbook, and others can go a long way toward informing and preparing us for inevitable problems. While I occasionally read books intended for professionals, I don’t think most of these offer much value to non-professionals.

Many of us don’t have a lot of spare cash, so it’s important to point out that. Used books often suffer for significantly less and older versions, even still less typically. And for a few examples, you can even find PDFs of the entire book online if you wanna keep a digital copy on your phone so you don’t have to haul your physical book around with you.

It’s not a replacement for professional veterinary care, but it can help you know what to look for, how to identify and manage an emergency situation so there’s a better chance of a positive outcome while you can use the book to help figure out what’s going on. I think it’s far more useful reading a little every day.

So eventually when you need the information, you’re more familiar with it and can review the necessary parts. Knowing how to determine if a lump is likely to be a problem or identifying bloat can help immensely. Then there are issues such as heartworm with average temperatures getting warmer. Areas where heartworm was not a problem are starting to see increases in cases. Heartworms are a subject I’ve spent a good deal of time learning about, and I could probably bore most people senseless in short order, but it’s useful to know the life cycle and development of heartworms so you can more easily manage the risks.

Other issues which are less life-threatening, but which cause considerable problems are biting flies often a bigger problem for equine porcine and bovine lovers, but also an annoyance for most of us. There’s a number of passive trap designs, which can greatly improve conditions. Who abiding flies are a problem?

There’s the older greenhead box trap designs that work okay, but other designs such as the Manitoba fly traps and the NZI style traps that tend to work much better. On a 10 acre property near a wetlands where biting flies were exceptionally bad, I found that just two well-placed traps brought the flies under control in a matter of weeks before the traps.

The flies would harass you incessantly as soon as you stepped outside, and the equine suffered a constant barrage. But once the traps were in place, the problem became manageable quickly. And if so, it was easy to forget that it had been a problem. Care in design of the traps and seasonal maintenance can go a long way, allowing traps to last for many years.

I welcome discussion on any of these topics. I make posts on most forms. I’ve been a part of discussing at least some of these issues and experiences. The more we share good methods and information, the better care our companions receive. And I think that’s something all zoos can get behind too. True.

Tarro: Yeah. Great message.

Aqua: Agreed.

Yeah. I can’t remember off the top of my head if we did an episode like this already. I don’t think we have, but it’s a great idea and, we will definitely be tapping, e Goldstein’s

knowledge when we put it together.

Tarro: I would love to see an episode like this. The only thing is it’s like really hard. It’s really complex and we’d really wanna make sure that we get everything correct. not to say that we couldn’t do that research, but I think the hope is that we can find an expert who’s kind of already got their foot in that world and we can use that as a jumpstart because I think more so than wanting to make sure everything gets, said correctly.

I would not want to put in any misinformation or things that like, aren’t factual, that pertain to like health and sort of safety when it comes to our animals. so yeah, we’re, we wanna do it. If you think that’s something that you could help out with, then definitely reach out to the show. ‘cause we would love to put together an episode like this.

Aqua: I don’t think it’ll take that much to raise the minimum standard of knowledge, that all zoos have. Maybe I’m wrong about that. I hope I am. But, outside of the zoo world, I am. Routinely disappointed, in just like the general knowledge that people have when dealing with minor injuries.

like in my house, that’s pretty much all that ever happens. and with a human, if you cut your hand or something, trying to be a smarty person with a kitchen knife and an avocado pit, okay, first of all, don’t do that. But there’s, unless it’s a really severe cut that really shouldn’t, like your first stop, shouldn’t be, urgent care, that gets expensive very quickly.

But being able to assess, how severe an injury is and how urgently it needs to be addressed like that, that can alleviate suffering on the spot, but it also gives you time to think and address it again more thoroughly later.

Steeeve: And they’re crazy expensive.

Aqua: especially if it’s after hours.

So we have a number of 24 hour vets, around where I live, but they’re all pretty far away. It’s like a minimum of a half an hour. Yeah, it’s two or $300 just to get in the door.

And I know a lot of people who don’t have $300 just sitting around.

Steeeve: What we’re, we’re hoping people will take away is, common issues and first aid. So if you have those two topics already canvassed and you’ve done a little bit of reading as our, listener indicated, then you’re already way ahead of the game. so if something does come up with your Animal companion, then, maybe it’s a common issue.

Maybe this is a situation for first aid. there’s one online reference that I really like that’s been pretty indispensable because you mentioned cost, and that is certainly a concern because like veterinarians yeah, they’re experts, they’re doctors, but, it’s that expertise comes at a price, right?

So maybe what you need is pretty straightforward and maybe what you need is a prescription. And the veterinarian is a expensive gatekeeper for that. fortunately there’s this resource that if you can’t go to a vet, it can give you guidance on how these medications are administered and also gives insight on common medical problems suffered by a common, Animal Companions, and it’s called the Merck Veterinarian Manual. So Merck is a pharmaceutical manufacturer. It’s, the website for them is M-E-R-C-K-V-E-T manual.com. and they give like actual dosage guidelines, in milligrams of medicine per kilogram of, body weight, and, just a ton of resources.

It’s intended for veterinary professionals, but there’s also a section for pet owners. There’s resources, there’s quizzes. It’s really useful. So if, if information asymmetry is a problem and you’re trying to figure out what’s wrong with your animal companion,it doesn’t cost you anything to read this stuff, especially in advance of when you might actually need it.

So yeah, Merck vet manual.com. Highly recommend good resource.

Aqua: yeah, agreed. I’ve, consulted that a number of times. and there’s others that are,truly life and death moments like you mentioned, bloat e Goldstein in your message, that kills within hours. That requires immediate attention. drop everything you’re doing

and

go.

Steeeve: right?

Aqua: that’s a scary one.

Steeeve: Yeah,there’s colic

reversal medication that if you give it right away within

like less than

an hour, then maybe you can prevent death from colic. But,if you already are in a community of say, a riding stable, then generally y’all are, Sharing information about stuff like this, and you can reach out to somebody else, therian say Hey, my horse is doing this. What do you think’s going on? but yeah, the, the more you know, the better it’s gonna be. And managing that risk is definitely, a problem of, education.

Tarro: There’s too many things out there that kill you.

Aqua: Yeah, there really are, and also, at least in my personal life, every vet that I’ve ever had time to chat with, during a visit or afterwards, has been super happy to answer questions. And they like it when, animal caregivers are interested in improving their standard of care.

So if you have occasion to ask a vet about something complicated, or something that’s a little bit outside your expertise, and they have the time to answer it, they’re probably gonna enjoy doing that.

Steeeve: And they’re sincerely, deeply concerned with animal welfare. So anything that furthers that, even if it doesn’t make them rich, they want your animal to be okay. That’s why they’re generally super depressed as A profession it’s because they’re working against. A system that seems designed to, worsen the station of animals. So, um, in anything that works for animal welfare, they’re, they’re totally for it, including, you know, whatever you can do at home to catch stuff early because, you know, time is your enemy here.

If your animal is sick, you just, you just wanna make sure that you get them the care that they need as, as quickly as possible.

Next up, we have a message from that damn trans mask rabbit again.

Aqua: All right. That damn trans mask rabbit again writes. Recently I was watching Housebroken, an animated TV show on Hulu and Fox. I’ve been watching it for a year or two now, mainly because of the obvious furry answer. Cartoon animals make brain Go bur. Anyway, however, one semi main character specifically I noticed was Chico. Chico is flat out, implied to be trans. He uses he him pronouns. He has a masculine name and wears a blue collar. But in one episode he has kittens. the characters around him. Don’t treat it like crazy thing either. From what I recall, everyone around him was just like, okay, he’s a guy who just gave birth, whatever.

If anything, they seemed more upset that he was getting the couch dirty. The main reason I bring him up, however, is because there’s always been an implied, albeit one sided relationship between Chico and his human. Chico even believed that kittens came to be because Kevin, partner, headed him one day. Obviously, the show reveals it’s because Chico has been having sex with astray, and as much as I hate to say it, Chico is implied to not actually understand what sex is. But I digress. In the newest episode, Chico briefly thinks Kevin died and tried to wake him up with true loves Kiss. Quoted directly from the show.

Obviously Kevin wasn’t actually dead, and it was also revealed Kevin was a furry and was on his way to a convention. Sometimes the relationship between Kevin and Chico is as a joke, but it’s more of a joke playing on the fact that the relationship is one sided, not the fact that his, that this whole relationship is a zoo one. I was just wondering the zoo, crew’s thoughts on the matter. Personally, I’m allowed and proud.

Iro Romantic zoo, and I love seeing representation only zoo relationships,but feline zoo relationships

as

Steeeve: Oh my goodness. Really?

Tarro: I’ve never heard of this before. Is it good? I.

Steeeve: it’s amazing. You need to watch it right now.

Tarro: Okay, well I’m gonna Goodbye. I am leaving the episode to go watch it. No.

Steeeve: Bye.

Tarro: I think there’s a really interesting pattern that emerges when you look at queer representation in media. much like the trope of sort of like really good friends that lived together from a time when you weren’t able to have gay people on tv. you know, there were still queer writers that wanted to include gay people in their shows or, you know, wanted to, uh, represent people in real life that they knew.

that’s very much been a thing for forever. I recently watched the horror movie, good Boy, uh, that came out last year where the gimmick is sort of that it’s from the perspective of a dog. And while they never explicitly say that the dog and the human main character that he lives with are in a relationship the whole time, I was just sitting there like.

This is a zoo relationship. like they’re, they’re sleeping in the same bed. Uh, the

dog is like eating food out of the human’s mouth. Like they’re, it’s, it’s basically just dating. granted it was a horror movie, so maybe not like the best representation, but still really great watch. And I think the

more that you sort of think about it

from that perspective, the more you do see zoo representation in media, in places you might not expect.

Steeeve: Dude, the one of the main story arcs from Housebroken is, um, honey, the main character who’s like a poodle that acts as a group therapist for a bunch of house pets, falls in love with a coyote, and uh, their culture clash and you know, uh, differences and their species and everything comes into play and they really explore that and it’s amazing.so I mean, like right off the jump, they have a zoo relationship, but as far as, Chico, his character, they explore a lot of stuff with that character, including like, how, dysfunctional relationships can be between humans and their pets because like, uh, his owner, Leaves from time to time and he gets like a attachment disorder and goes crazy and gets all super upset. and he also over feeds him a lot. So he gets like hugely obese, Chico, the cat. at some point, he mistakenly believes that he is being invited over for trash mess, and misses out on it. And he, uh, he gets super angry, because he misses out on it. And then, the gray one explains that his ham to blood ratio was restored after he, heto his normal state of eating. yeah, my mom had this friend with a, a super chubby cat that She would just feed like table scraps and whatever, just endless wet food. And, uh. and if you pointed that out and said like, whoa, man, your cat needs to get on a diet super unhealthy.She would just get so indignant and say, he’s not fat, he’s just got a little head.

Aqua: Yeah, just point of interest.Spherical animals are for physics

textbooks, not real life.

Steeeve: But yeah, the Chico’s a trip. and yeah, just kind of turns up pregnant and has, I think is kind of an, an object lesson. And, um, when people just get so abstract of the concept of, uh, an animal And don’t remember like, no man, this species evolved alongside ours has been around for millions and millions of years.

And if you get really abstract with that and forget like, Hey man, this you know, this, this is a creature with their own. needs and their own health concerns that arrive, you know, arrived at this current formthrough their own. Process and, and fail to acknowledge like, Hey, no, they need to do cat stuff and they need to eat cat diet. Instead of just like oh here, you wanna, do you want a twinie look, he likes Twinkies. Let’s give him Twinkies. Let’s just leave him inside on the couch forever and ever and see what happens. don’t do that. So yeah, they, they kind of point that out. And in the show there’s like, like I said, contrast between the domesticated animals and like a raccoon and stuff.

If you haven’t seen housebroken, you need to chuck it out. it’s awesome.

Tarro: I will take a look. Yeah.

Aqua: Okay. Okay.

Okay. I’ll add it.

Steeeve: Do it.

Aqua: watch it.

Steeeve: Yeah, it’s really, really good.

Aqua: Yeah. Actually I’m excited because if the show is taking the time to demonstrate how human animal.

relationships are really broken, and make it obvious how we can improve things, uh, just getting the audience to empathize with the animal

Tarro: Yeah,

Aqua: That’s super great. I love that.

Steeeve: Yeah,

definitely check it out.

Aqua: and it reminds me of the way that humans like to, use animal forms. In storytelling, like the way we’ve always done this for like millennia, right? Anytime there’s an issue that not enough people are paying attention to, or it’s sensitive, or it’s taboo or it’s just impolite, or we’re just challenging, an accepted state or normality that really needs to change because it’s hurting someone.

to do that is to use, animal characters, it can create like this

safe distance.

Steeeve: Just a little bit of space so that we can consider it a little more

Aqua: Yeah. So,

Tarro: Yeah.

Aqua: It just hits different and like, it, it makes, people’s, inherent

empathy like more available to them, in a way that wouldn’t necessarily be so easy to do.

Steeeve: Totally agree.

Aqua: so yeah. Good on them.

Steeeve: Yeah. Thanks for

writing in that dim trans mask rabbit, we

always like hearing from you. next up we have a message from Sheep Wolf. The subject is just a big thanks to all of y’all. Sheep Wolf writes, hello, my name is Sheep Wolf and I’ve been listening to the pod now for the past like five months, and I just wanted to thank you guys for all these awesome episodes.You make really good points and a lot of this is really good to hear. I got out of prison two years ago for owning a farm and just showing real love for my animals. I lost my farm and all the animals, but I’m starting to bounce back. Am able to cope a lot better. Thanks to listening to this podcast, I just think it’s so wrong that we zoos or look down, uponwhen all we do is love in a different unharmful way.

Love the work y’all do.

Tarro: Well, first of all, I mean, hey, congrats on getting out. really sucks to hear about that situation, but I mean, I’m

happy to hear that you’re getting your life back together. and I’m glad that the show was helpful in some capacity towards that. Uh, I’m not sure when this email actually came in, but I’m hoping since then things have only gotten better and that your life is mostly

back to where you hoped it would be.

So yeah, best wishes for me.

Steeeve: One of my oldest zoo friends that I’ve known for, I don’t know, 15 years or something, did time in large part because he was discovered to have a bunch of zoo porn in his possession. he wasn’t caught for doing anything, just even owning the porn was enough to get him convicted. And I think he did about a year for that. but he got out and he’s since had a totally productive life and that, you know, healthy relationships with canine and equine companions and, um, he’s got a new career and you know, he is living his best life. He’s doing good. So it’s, it’s difficult, but it is possible. so if, if you are a formerly or currently incarcerated zoo who’s somehow got access to this program, we’re pulling for you. We hope you do good. And we wanna see every zoo have a happy, healthy, successful life.

Aqua: if you don’t mind me asking, how long ago did that happen to your friend?

Steeeve: Mm. Probably 12 or 13 years ago. Yeah,

Aqua: Interesting.

You know, because there’s only a couple of states that expressly prescribe possession of zoom material. like Washington is one of them. I can’t remember the other one. But everywhere else, it’s just not illegal which

Steeeve: right.

Aqua: distinct from legal. you know, so like it’s, everybody needs to bear this mind, right? like just because it’s not illegal where you live doesn’t mean that it won’t cause problems for you if you’re discovered with it. I get real uncomfortable whenever somebody tells me they have this stuff on their phone,

Steeeve: percent. ‘

Aqua: cause that’s like the worst place you could have It but it’s frustrating, right? I wish I had more detail about what happened at the, to sheep Wolf. ‘ or even your friend. I would love to understand the circumstances. It could be useful, you know, if you’re listening

and you wanna share that privately,

please do.

Steeeve: and you know, of course if you wanna prevent going to prison and providing the evidence that zealous prosecutors might need to come after you. Please reference our early episode, the Safety Dance, which goes over opsec. Great detail,

Tarro: Yeah. Thanks so much for running in Cheap Wolf.

Aqua: That’s another episode we should revisit.

Tarro: it really is.

Steeeve: right?

Aqua: The world has changed.

Tarro: Oh, does that mean I get the goner email? Let’s go. Our next email comes from Kauna with the subject hard feelings. Kauna writes, I want a dog so, so bad, but I still feel kind of bad sexually interacting with them, but it turns me on so bad.

Aqua: that’s a whole email. Okay.

Tarro: the email

Tarro: that’s, that’s it.

Steeeve: what it even, that’s a fortune

cookie message.

Aqua: this is an easy one for me. I think, the safe thing to do here is abstain. having animals in your life is so much more than sex. And sex may never happen. we’ve said it before, but it’s a 24 7, 365 commitment for life and sex might be a feature or it might not be, and it’s really their decision, not yours.

And you have to respect it. so I’m not telling you not to get a dog. I’m hoping that you’ll bring a companion into your home for all the other reasons, because there’s so much joy

that has

Tarro: Yeah, co-signing that. Definitely don’t get an animal just for sex. That’s a huge no-no.Uh, but also, don’t feel too badly about your attraction either. There’s nothing getting, there’s nothing wrong with getting turned on by what gets you turned on. Live your, best life. Keep

your

head up. Don’t, don’t beat yourself up.

Steeeve: Yeah, totally agree. I just realized that the vast majority of your, your time, if we’re looking looking at a task analysis of like, okay, well out of 24 hours, what am I doing with my animal companion? most of that is gonna be normal. You know, animal caretaker stuff that isn’t sexual at all. That would totally overlap with anyone who cares for the same kind of animal.

with a horse that maintenance is extreme. It’s super early mornings, forever. You can never take a break. , It’s a lot of like heavy labor shoveling, lifting, heavy hay bales, getting eaten alive by mosquitoes. Like and it’s the point, like they need that care.

Tarro: Well, don’t kink shame.

Aqua: a lot of horses are very precise timekeepers too,

so if breakfast is late,

Steeeve: Yeah.

Aqua: will let you know.

Steeeve: I used to have a dairy goat and she had to be milked exactly every 12 hours. And one time I was too slow milking her, and she ate the feed in her bucket on the stanchion and then picked the bucket up out of the stanchion and they can see almost all the way behind them, like almost 360 degree vision. And she threw the bucket up in the air such that it hit me right between the eyes, , while I was milking her. So, you know, that’s not that sexy. Believe it because it was kind of like slobbery and there was still like chunks of feed in Therian. You know, I was trying to like, I’m like, I’m doing the best I can, I’m trying to milk you.

like well, I ran out of food, so you need to, get me some more food before this is over. Yeah, man. you know, it’s, it’s cool, There’s no harm in that. But actually committing to animal care for the life of that animal is, a very different experience from just like getting turned on by the thoughts in your head. Yeah.

Tarro: Yeah. right. Well thanks so much for writing in Kauna

Steeeve: Next up we have another message from ea Goldstein.

Tarro: Double Eagle

Steeeve: Aqua, do you wanna take this one?

Aqua: All right. E Goldstein writes, in with feedback about the meat panopticon episode. E Goldstein writes, I thought the episode was pretty good and informative. While many of the meat substitutes have made keeping comfort foods available, I certainly enjoy my vegan biscuits and gravy, for example, I tend to side with us as a society, needing new recipes to use new materials instead of just trying to shoehorn in replacements. I’m not knocking replacements. The rise of popularity has brought new solutions and made it easier for people to get on board, and that’s great. I wish I could promote a recipe that uses some of this new stuff in novel new ways, but I’m not a very good cook. I do like Asian and Indian cuisine, which does make it easier to find meals without meat. Thanks for keeping up with this topic. it’s contentious with some, but I agree it’s important. I appreciated Steve’s input on behaviorism in regard to the person with the dog having fear issues. That’s the kind of stuff I was talking about before, science-backed advice for the common problems people have. I think small bits of general training advice would be handy. All positive reinforcement stuff. I’m often surprised by the lack of understanding of this stuff among the general populace and among zoos. It seems obvious after the fact, but so many people don’t understand the most basic facts, such as whatever an animal is doing.

When a reinforcer arrives, it will do more frequently. If the dog happens to sit just then sitting will become more frequent. The basic functioning of this stuff isn’t hard to grasp, but understanding how to apply it in certain circumstances can be, for instance, it is a whole lot easier getting a dog to sit than it is to say treat, uh, than it is to say, treat one for separation anxiety, the added communications that can be had by learning tools such as reshaping or the use of compassionate care to allow the dog to express their consent to be handled, see the bucket game, for example, and enhance the relationship in so many ways. I keep pushing this stuff because I think it’s important. I want other zoos to use good methods. I don’t want anyone accidentally punishing

their partner because they don’t know

any better and just

default to crank and yank because it’s so ubiquitous.

Thanks for the good work and

effort.

It is appreciated.

Steeeve: Aw. Something I said reached somebody.

The, phenomenon

you’re, you’re describing there, double E Goldstein is called pairing. If you pair the delivery of a reinforcer with a behavior that you wanna see more of then they come to associate the behavior with the reward. So pairing is what you’re looking for or what we’d call classical conditioning. all this applied behavior analysis is there to try to bridge a divide between species And sets of behavior and cultural differences between, you know, often canine or equine culture and human, culture. And if you can, um, shape behavior so that something that’s normal for a dog but abhorrent to a human like, vigorous play biting, you know, if your dog runs up to strange, you know, like unknown human children and, and engages them and rough, vigorous play biting, that’s probably not something that anyone wants. so you know, if you can avoid reinforcing that and re reinforce playing in a specific time and place where it’s acceptable, that’s, you know, one example of how you can use applied behavior analysis to have a better relationship with your pet. As far as the meat panopticon, that was a tough one. I think that’s the one where I discovered that that dairy cartel was bigger and worse than ever when I was hoping that it had gone away, it certainly didn’t. Yeah, that was, that was a low point for me.

Aqua: Yeah, that

took me by surprise too.

Steeeve: But glad you liked it.

Aqua:

Tarro: Yeah, I think zoo activism is really interesting ‘cause there’s like different angles that we can approach it from. So like there’s obviously the human side of things where we try to communicate with other humans in such a way as to show that our attraction isn’t necessarily like wrong or evil, like some might perceive it to be.

but then there’s also the animal side of things and that’s just as big. whether that’s trying to show people how to give their partners the best possible lives or supporting causes that help animals in general, such as like environmentalism or veganism. in a perfect world, I really think. It would be cool if we could do both of those things at once, where we can, you know, show our side and help other zoos that are struggling, but then also be a really, really amazing resource for how to better live with animals and how to make the world a better place for animals as well. so yeah, that’s something I think about when I’m trying to, to figure out how to spend my time doing.

this whole zoo activism thing.

Aqua: So I’m

not sure when E Goldstein sent this email in, but, just in case it’s older than I think I’ll let everybody know that. season seven, episode threeis all about canine agency and consent. And, , Mike, the dog and, some others put a huge amount of effort into it.

So if you’re interested in exploring this now, that’s, a really good place to start. And, uh, hopefully

there’s more coming.

Steeeve: Here. Here.

Tarro: Yeah, thanks for, uh, running in a second time. Eagle Goldstein. I think that we should have two of your emails in every episode

Steeeve: Oops. All Eagle Goldstein.

Tarro: that’s an

amazing idea for

Steeeve: out the

middleman and have Eagle Goldstein, the host, the podcast. Just do it. Do it. Eagle Goldstein,

do it

Tarro: No, I think it’s way funnier to do it. Eagle Goldstein.

Aqua: Just like start a normal

episode, but then have them interrupt the broadcast like Max headroom and just take over.

Steeeve: like zoo by radio, Aqua style.

Tarro: I love the idea of him writing

in emails that have like show direction where he is like, okay,

cue the music this point and then here we’re gonna jump to a

skit and

the next email,

Steeeve: maybe the

real Goldstein was the friends we made along the way.

Tarro: I like that guy.

Steeeve: Well, thanks for writing in yet again, Eagle Goldstein again. next up we have a message from Zooey Zooey writes the subject, zoo awareness slash subculture

virtual slash vr chat. Alright, hello and greetings from one of the states in the USA. I was wondering what your guys slash gals and furry friends opinions were about spreading zoo positivity and zeta principles virtually within VR chats, furry spaces slash worlds, a lot of which seemed to be misinformed on zoos as whole.

Stay safe in zooey PS Toggle is super adorable and their voice makes me swoon. All right.

Tarro: Yeah,

so I actually know quite a few zoos who are really big fans of VR chat. , I think it can be a really cool way to be a little bit more publicly open while still being protected by an avatar.obviously if you have like a full 3D model that’s unique to you, you can use that to represent yourself in a way that feels much more akin to being out. Without actually being out. I’ve also played a little bit with the idea of trying to use VR chat to record some kind of like video content that could do well even outside of that space. , like I think that being able to record like, uh, YouTube videos that are maybe like recordings of zoo dot popepisodes or, even just making like fun little like info videos would be really, really cool and VR Chat would be able to like enable that in a really fun way but I’m stupid and, VR is scary and expensive. So yeah. Long story short, there

is for sure a zoo VR community out Therian. I think that’s awesome. So if you haven’t met up

with them yet, find a way to connect.

Aqua: I’m glad you’re at least here to help answer this one because VR stuff like I am just not compatible with it. I know you can play some of it on a normal computer screen, but that really breaks, all the features and the immersion or whatever. I have never had a good experience with VR chat, and someday I’ll get brave and I’ll

revisit it, but the last time I did, I puked so hard, I turned inside out.

Steeeve: I’ve never tried it, and now maybe I never will if puking inside out.

is a thing.

Tarro: there’s some really cool sort of data to show that like, because being in vr, your eyes and your brain have like different things going on as it comes to like your sense of space. So if you’re someone who experiences vertigo at all, um,VR can be really, really hard for you. but it’s also something you can train your brain to get more and more used to. Uh, it just very much sucks if you’re someone who like does not respond well to it the first time and have to like force

yourself into it. Um, but you can do it with like, just sort of sessions, taking lots of breaks. Um, so yeah.

Steeeve: Yeah. Train

your brain aqua.

Tarro: also,

I agree. Toggle does have

a super adorable voice,

Steeeve: He really sounds like that.

That’s his real voice in real life too.

Tarro: agree on that one. Zooey.

Steeeve: true.

Tarro: All right. Thanks so much for in Zooey.

Aqua: Okay, up next we have Northwest River Wolf, who’s writing in about season six, episode two. Animal Smells Northwest writes, Hey, a zoo crew just wanted to make a short comment on the brief discussion of animal smells. For those of you who have not had the opportunity to work closely with horses, I must let you know that horses smell great.

I wouldn’t call it sour rosemary, though, to be fair, I have trouble conceptualizing what that smells like, but it certainly is a distinct sort of earthy, grassy smell. It is definitely my favorite animal smell, and I wish I could work around or with them more often. I also wanted to share that my parents have two dogs that are from the same litter, but they smell very different. They eat the same food, they go to the same places every day, are bathed with the same shampoos at the same time. They have their very own distinct sense. I’ve always thought that was pretty cool.Now a question of mine that is unrelated to smells unfortunately, but has been rattling around in my head, what are y’all’s opinions on zoos, not zoos as in, uh, zoophiles, but zoos as in places that house many different animals for the general public to look at. I have a few in my area that have contributed to conservation efforts of at-risk species in multiple verifiable ways and go out of their way to educate the public on things like environmentalism and animal welfare. But I do know there are many around the world who participated in Less than ethical practices to say the least. It is a topic I haven’t seen discussed yet on my brief

time working on the Zuo file

forums. Hope this

message finds all of

you well, river.

Oh boy. This could be a whole episode.

Steeeve: It really could. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a trade off, right? Zoological gardens. Because you know, in certain parts of the world where the budget isn’t therian, the ethics aren’t therian, the regulations aren’t there. You could have something truly abhorrent where an animal has no enrichment, and they’re just pacing until they go insane in like a concrete box full of filth.

Right. Or on the opposite end of the spectrum, you could have something like the San Diego Zoo, which is considered to be like a gold standard international class zoological garden, where they, they do all of the positive things you mentioned, such as uh, environmental, Educational outreach And conservation and best practices.

And the enclosures are as close to possible as you’d find in nature. And there’s a rehabilitative, mission there where a lot of the animals are just staying temporarily and so they can be released back into the wild. or there’s some reason that they can’t exist in the wild because of behavioral issues or health issues.

And so this is the only place they can be, and everything in between. So yeah, there’s a lot of complication and nuance there. you know, and to the extent that that’s really helpful, we, we generally think it’s maybe a good thing, but, to the extent that it’s exploitative and harmful to animals, then it’s pretty gross and awful, and it kind of shines a mirror on the worst of of humanity.

Tara, what do you think about all this?

Tarro: No, I mostly agree with what you said. I I think it’s really complicated. I think like for a long time, even personally, I had like a very sort of knee jerk reaction to say that all. Zoos are bad. but then sort of the more I learned about it, the more I talked with people that work in that ecosystem, the more I realized that there is a lot of benefit to what they’re doing. And I think really it just comes down to like whether or not the zoo is something that is, you know, animal first focused that happens to allow people inand, you know, makes an effort to bridge a gap between species that people might not ever be able to interact with. Uh, versus something where it’s like they just wanna make money saying you can come and see the animal.

and it’s hard to know which is which from the outside sometimes. But, uh, there are resources online that will sort of tell you how reputable a zoo is, and it’s probably worth checking that out if you ever wanna stop and visit one. So you’re supporting like the right places.

Aqua: Yeah, I’m torn about this too. I love visiting zoos. I always have, and you know, I’m aware of the challenges and the, the conflicts of interest in funding and also. Obtaining animals for display and whether display is their purpose for being there research being done as well. if there’s a program, to save a species or reintroduce them eventually. and I think the ones that I have been to personally, have been well regarded and, appear to be well funded. and that doesn’t mean that they are exempt from criticism.

Where I really start to struggle are with smaller zoos like local ones that not too many people know about

or

they don’t get as much foot traffic or

as much money coming in from ticket sales,

Steeeve: and the care suffers.

Aqua: and

Tarro: Mm-hmm.

Aqua: really what worries me.

So do you support those zoos and hope that your money is improving the lives of the animals that they have? Or do you avoid those zoos and, hope that they close as a business, you know, the animals are relocated. And how does that happen? Does it happen at all? where I personally draw the line is, on aquariums and, marine world type, parks.

So sea world, for example. But there’s, there’s others. those are especially difficult for me, uh, because toothed whales, dolphins, uh, killer whales, orcas, in other words, they’re so intelligent and, creating their habitat, requires so much space and so. much maintenance. it doesn’t ever seem to go well. and and they’re very long lived too, Even in captivity where their life expectancy is shorter, again, according to conditions and stimulation.

Steeeve: Yeah, for real.

Aqua: I just can’t get behind that I can’t go. I don’t know what else to say about it. It’s, about two years ago that documented, like the final years of, um,Uh, was it KO’s life? and this whole effort to try to like, save him and find him a permanent home and, reintroduce him to the wild and how that like, that didn’t go to plan at all. and it was, it ended up being really tragic.and that’s really, the thing that I think people miss is that once, the system takes in an animal,

they’re

stuck.

and it’s extremely difficult.

and sometimes there is political

tension in trying to relocate them or release them or

rehome them, if that’s even possible. And it’s really difficult.

Steeeve: Yeah. but it’s always good to hear from you. Northwest River Wolf, we enjoy smelling animalsand hearing from you.

Steeeve: Next up, we have message from Wolf Seeks dog.

Tarro: Wolf seeks dog writes in with the subject. Telegram is a systemic risk to the zoo community. They write Dear ZTT. We as a community depend on telegram and many of us trusted implicitly with our deepest secrets. We tend to assume that it is safe,

the consensus from security experts is that it is seriously insecure. It was not built competently. It appears not to be run competently and its owner worryingly. Looks like just another tech bro. Douche. And given the amount of secrets Telegram holds, it is certain to be heavily targeted by hackers.

Here’s a prediction for you. I bet the Telegram will suffer an apocalyptic hack within the next three years with massive publication of people’s message histories and IP addresses. Is it likely? I hope not, but I definitely wanna be wrong on this one. But the point is, it’s plausible, and that should scare the living shit out of all of us.

every listener should consider, what would it do to your life if your neighbors And family could see every message you ever posted on Telegram, including your phone number, email address, and your IP address, so likely your location as well. and that’s assuming that the people who hack it are the kind who publish the data.

They’re the amateurs. The professionals are a lot scarier. This is not a safe system. We are a vulnerable community. Unsafe plus vulnerable equals catastrophe. We are sitting in a floodplain. The levies are weak, and we don’t have the luxury of continuing to sit on our asses just because the neighbors are complacent.

There are alternatives. a furry and professional security researcher recently wrote a great tactical blog post on the problems with Telegram. he also described alternative apps, especially Signal. Signal has groups, and yes, it supports stickers.

So we do have alternative places to go. What Soto doesn’t tackle is the network effect. So far we’ve stayed on Telegram because that’s where everybody else is. Here’s my suggestion for everyone out there, start small install signal Messenger. Set it up with a username so you don’t have to reveal your phone number.

Then move whatever you can, whenever You can. You don’t have to do it all at once. Start with your personal one-on-one chats. Ask people to move to signal with you. Migrate as individuals one by one because once you’ve got the individuals, then the community follows. Is it an effort? Yeah, a bit. Will it feel kind of empty at first?

Probably. But the benefits are immediate. Just bear in mind each conversation, you move away from telegram of the conversation that can’t be used against you later. and if telegram blows as it quite possibly will, you’re going to be fucking grateful you got off of it earlier rather than later. Good luck

and dog help us all. And it’s not safe here. So move your fuzzy butts.

Steeeve: All right, so I’m just gonna chime in right away and say that I know nothing of information technology. I’m not one of those zoos. So I’m gonna let you guys talk through this and I have a, feeling that you have a lot to say. So I’m just gonna leave you guys to it and I am gonna go walk my dog. All right, y’all

enjoy. I’ll catch you later.

Tarro: Yep.

Aqua: Okay, I don’t have hands, but just imagine me cracking my knuckles, I guess.

All right. So, I totally get where Wolfs seeks dog is coming from, but just from this email, I think their thinking is too absolute, and too reliant on a programmatic or a platform based solution, to what is

really a social safety issue in the end. So, you know, it be, it begins with making a threat model and reviewing it and sticking to the plan. But, I think maybe what I should do is start, back at the beginning here,

Tarro: Sure.

Aqua: this idea that, uh, Telegram is uh, seriously insecure and it’s not built competentlyso Telegram is used by millions and millions of people worldwide. And, uh, it’s absolutely targeted by scammers and script kitties and also nation states.

But, we’ve had Telegram over a decade at this point, and there’s been relatively few security incidents, like serious ones, uh, at least at the application level. And that’s with that huge user base, which is nowhere near as large as WhatsApp. But I still consider that a good sign. It’s actively maintained.

There’s a new version to Telegram app,

Tarro: Mm-hmm.

Aqua: Gosh, every week. so it sees heavy use, it has good uptime, and like I, you know, the problems that we have with Telegram really don’t require like an epic hack.

It’s, uh, It’s

really more about the people involved and, uh, political realities. So like this, this idea that Telegram is, gonna suffer some apocalyptic hack.

Yeah. Okay. That’s possible. It’s also possible. Signal will, maybe less likely, but it is still possible. I think what’s actually going to happen with Telegram is, we’re gonna start seeing more and more, countries blocking Telegram outright. Like, Russia, for example, telegram is blocked, about 50 to 60% of the time.

and, you know, Ross Kano or, uh, or whatever their uh, their, security.

the, you know, their government security apparatus concerning it, uh, has, Uh. has started ramping up that effort. So it’s possible in the next year or two, that telegram is

gonna be totally unavailable inside Russia.

Tarro: Yeah, and if it was super easy to just sort of peek in, I’m sure that the Russian government wouldn’t care as much about banning the app. The thing that they’re worried about is people being able to communicate without the supervision of the government. another thing that really stands out to me is like understanding what is actually getting leaked whenever there is a security breach. Because there’s a big difference between, you know, uh, something going out like user account names or emails that have been associated with telegram accounts versus the actual like, contents of messages and like the names that are associated with those messages. of the times the telegram has had issues in the past, it’s been relatively speaking on like the

lighter side of like, quote unquote leaks compared to, you know, the apocalyptic situation that’s being described in this email.

Aqua: Yeah. okay. So to the next point, you know, this idea that, uh, you know, what would it be like if your neighbors and family could see every message you ever wrote on Telegram, Um, I. I’m personally, I’m not scared of that for a few reasons. Fausty used to say, uh, like his policy was not to say anything you wouldn’t want read back to your family. And I mostly follow that on Telegram, but it’s not ‘cause some epic hack could undo me, or wreck my life. It’s, it’s actually because of the people that I’m around. you don’t need to hack anything to leak a group chat like it happens on a, a weekly basis. it really is, the people using the service at the end that are the biggest security risk. Like that is always true and it really doesn’t matter if it’s Telegram or signal or anything else. you know, signal is, extremely well regarded because of its intense focus on security and privacy. But, in order for signal to work everything that they do to protect your messages. And your, your contacts, all of that has to be decrypted to be presented to you on the screen, which means the ultimate responsibility for everyone’s safety lies with you using the app.

Uh, And if you lose control of your device, whether it’s a phone or a

computer, it’s basically game over.

Tarro: I mean, signal is

the app that, uh, that reporter got added to during,

like the, the war chat thing that happened a couple months ago, right?

Aqua: yeah, And like

Tarro: Yeah. It, the app

can be as secure as you want. If someone’s

stupid enough to just

add the wrong person, then it doesn’t matter.

Aqua: Yeah. So what we’re getting to here is, no tool is perfect. Uh, there is no silver bullet here. There’s just a different emphasis you can make on your app design. You can lean heavily towards privacy and security, like Signal does at the cost of really important features, like massive groups.

Like there’s, uh, the group limit is a thousand users. you know, with Telegram it’s what, 250,000 or more?

Tarro: Yeah, it’s massive.

Aqua: right away that rules out signal for any sort of art channel, uh, that someone’s trying to run a business through. It’s just not enough. and on the other side, you’ve got Telegram, which makes it very slick and easy to do casual networking and socializing with other people.

if you want your messages to be secure, you have to actively take steps to make that happen. You have to use one-on-one chats, which are end-to-end encrypted. We’ll come back to that. and, you know, You have to go through a bajillion settings in the app to make sure that your phone number’s not visible to people you don’t want.

or You can’t be added to groups, without permission. So no one can just dump you in a group called like you know, ugly Zoo files and then just take a screenshot of a member list, you know, that kind of thing. It is possible to use Telegram safely, just Like anything else, as long as you understand what it is, what it can do, what it can’t do for you and thenyou adapt yourself. and the same is true with signal. Like they don’t replace each other. They’re, they’re complimentary. So If you’re doing something that is, uh, like heavy lift, uh, that’s sketchy or illegal, or it’s a form of activism that’s gonna land you in hot water, yes, uh, telegram is not the place for that. you’re just hanging out and talking about how much you like dog paws,

Tarro: Mm-hmm.

Aqua: probably fine. so, the, I think the next point I wanna make is that th this idea that the, uh, the amateur level data breaches are like the easy ones, and the pros are the scarier ones. It really depends on who we’re talking about here. Because the amateurs I’m familiar with, at least in the furry fandom, are, a tiny number of them, thankfully, but they’re pretty focused on infiltrating groups where they have no business being and then publishing whatever they find.

police And government apparatus, scammers, uh, you know, their priorities are different. They’re either getting paid to do some work that’s more targeted, or they’re trying to make money from people by, you know, lying to them, essentially. It really depends on who we’re talking about. And if you wanna see that in action. there is a documentary on Frontline called The Rise and Fall of Terror Graham, which demonstrates this, this, concerns itself with, a white nationalist, network of chats on Telegram, which was mostly open tothe public, whoever felt like joining. ‘cause of course, they have to recruit. but the investigation into understanding that network of relationships between key people, that was all done with, software, that is available for free or for a subscription.

Uh, it wasn’t just somebody going into a chat

and then dumping the contents and then leaving, it, that was done in cooperation with law

enforcement, but it was really just investigative journalists.

Tarro: This is another place where it feels important to mention as well that like hacking in the sense that you think of it doesn’t really exist. a lot of what hacking is is just social engineering and getting into positions where you do have access to.

things that you theoretically shouldn’t have access to. even for apps that I’m sure everyone would consider much less private, like Discord for instance. You know, no one can just sort of like use their elite computer knowledge to like access the mainframe and steal all the data. Like that’s not really how anything like this works, especially not in like the day-to-day. Once again, it’s much more about like the people and the ways that malicious groups are going to target, like making friendsfriends and building connections to gain access to those other spaces.

Aqua: Agreed. hackers are lazy technically, and that they’ll put in precisely as much effort as needed to accomplish some goal. and there are so many legitimate and Reasonable ways to abuse Telegram that require absolutely no, skill and noexploits at all. You just put yourself somewhere and wait for people to, say something stupid.

As far as the network effect Corey Dro, term ification, goes into incredible detail about the network effect and, uh, user base inertia. He’ll check out his videos. they’re fascinating and, you know, they, they will hopefully give you some hope about how to migrate your friends to a different platform.It’s incredibly difficult. You know, five hungry friends can’t decide where to order their pizza from, so good luck getting

everybody to stop using Instagram.

Tarro: Yeah, we’ve, been experiencing that a lot recently with, uh, our switch from discord to Matrix, uh, which happened before any of the more recent Discord news, but would’ve been a great reason to move anyway. even though everyone knows Discord is you know, fairly antio and is implementing a lot of policies that are, are against privacy,uh, it is still so hard to boom people away from a platform where everyone is. and so it is just a matter of like. You know, having conversations with your friends andslowly sort of moving people over one by one. I appreciate the way that Wolfe’s dog, framed it. ‘cause that’s kind of how we’re looking at it as well, where like, I

think objectively being on

Matrix is better than being on Discord, butit’s hard to make people move.

Aqua: Like I said, I totally get where Wolfe’s dog is coming from on this. Uh, but the answer is not, in my opinion, the answer is not to despair or, you know, resort to like doom saying, it’s just to understand the tools in front of you and how to align them with your objectives and then stick to that plan.

And that’s like the whole point of threat modeling. you know, we talked about telegrams value proposition compared to Signal and why they’re different enough that it’s worth using both. I’ll never tell somebody not to try to use Signal. I think it’s great. but it’s never gonna replace Telegram. It can’t, as far as Telegram security, this is where It gets weird.

telegram is like from a different planet, the way that it’s designed. It is a catastrophic mess. and you know, security experts were very right to be concerned about this because it doesn’t follow best practices. It’s incredibly difficult to audit and not all the code is auditable. the server side stuff is closed source as far as I know.

So the best anybody can do is look at the clients and see whether or not they work in a safe way. Um, that has since happened. Uh, there was an effort earlier, I think it was around June of2025. so there was an attempt to do a security audit on telegrams clients. it’s like a hundred pages long. and they couldn’t, the code base actually fights, anyone’s ability to understand how this works. so. At the end of it the researchers and everybody reading it who knows anything about this, just kind of threw their hands in the air and said, okay, it seems to be working, but we don’t know why.

And that’s scary. but just go into using Telegram, knowing that and, use the features that are available. And as long as you have structured your communication around telegrams limitations, and you move to other apps when you. need to there’s a lot you can do on your own, to protect yourself. and And the rest of it frankly, is out of your control. It’s everybody else in the room with you. They have to know a thing or two about security, and how to protect their phone and everything else. And they also might engage in behavior that’s much riskier than you can tolerate. So. That’s really the risk.

It’s other people. yeah, it’s not some, catastrophic hack or vulnerability discovery like that could happen and it will get fixed,

but

who knows?

Tarro: more than telegram or signal. The

safest thing is a uh, six month auto delete on all your chats.

Aqua: Yeah. So guess that’s really all there is to say about it right now. It is probably worth revisiting telegram and then operational security principles

in the future because it’s been a few years since we did that.

Tarro: Yeah, there is one more thing I wanna say, which is just that, like, I do think that as much as security is a really good thing, it can also be kind of a term that gets used a lot of the times for advertising more than anything else. and I think that the race to be like the most secure and most protective app can be like a little bit of like a, a never ending cycle.

I think that does look really bad for them. Obviously different companies are gonna be more or less sort of malleable to governmental pressure, but I just think that for right now. If, if you’re someone with a low threat model, don’t stress out too much about it personally. like AKA was saying, if you’re doing stuff that you know could really get you in trouble, then obviously it matters more.

But like, I don’t think anyone necessarily needs to constantly be on

the top of the, whatever the most secure app is at the time.

Aqua: Yeah. I pay close attention to it because it’s it’s interesting to me and because it, I would rather know,

Tarro: Mm-hmm.

Aqua: than just trust. That’s who I am. But it’s been probably five years since I started using Telegram, in support of the podcast. and the way that I use it really frustrates some other people. cause like there are rules that I stick to, but the rules are working and they, I don’t know how much longer. They will, hopefully a while, but I’m comfortable with the arrangement that I have. and that’s really it. Understand the tools, understand your goals, review them whenever something changes.

And bear in mind that none of the differences we’re talking about here really matter if someone in your circle of friends or professional contacts is malicious or they

get sloppy, you know, that’s really it.

Tarro: Mm-hmm.

Aqua: yeah. Great email if that’s an important topic. Thanks for sharing that with us. Wolf seeks dog. And, send me a message on Telegram if you want my signal contact. well, that was the end of our list of emails for this episode, friends. And, uh, Steve has fucked off to do something more important. he’s in for a surprise when he comes back and realize, uh,

that we’re off the air. Thanks so much to everybody who wrote in. Please keep doing that. We love your emails and thank you everyone else for

listening and coming along the for the ride.

Tarro: Yeah, if we, uh, didn’t read your email, but you sent one in already, uh, don’t be too afraid to poke again if it’s been a really long time. But also we do have a really big backlog and we try to sort of keep our emails for when they seem really relevant to sort of what’s going on in the episode or what’s going on in the world at the time.

so

uh, yeah, hopefully we will get to everyone, but, uh, we get a lot of messages, so sorry if yours was not in this list.

Aqua: Alright, taro and Steve, thanks so much for joining me on this one. We’ll see y’all next time.

Tarro: Bye.

Outro

Aqua: Thanks friends for listening to Zooier Than Thou!

Tarro: Our next episode is April 1st, and that’s no April Fools joke.

Steeeve: It’s all about dolphins. We’ll be doing a deep dive on the sexiest Marine mammal we know.

Tarro: If you’ve ever wanted to know what it’s like being in love with a dolphin, we’re bringing the real expert. So make sure you check it out.

Aqua: You can subscribe to our zooey RSS feed at rss.zoo.wtf. You can also check out our extensive bonus content at bonus.zoo.wtf. If you wanna show your support financially, head on over to Donate.Zoo.wtf.

Steeeve: Our show’s website is still zoo.wtf, and we have a form that enables anonymous submissions to the show on that website. You can also simply email us at [email protected].

Aqua: And remember, if you decide to email us directly, be sure to include an alias so we can u be sure to use an alias we can use. Let us know whether or not we can use your email on the show. If you’re not sure what we need, just use our website form for guidance.

Steeeve: Share this episode with the zoo who wants some zoo stickers? I send them anywhere in the world for free. Just message zoo [email protected] or dm me on Twitter at Zoo Stories Zoo and I’ll get ‘em out to you.

Tarro: I am Tarro and I’m going to send in an email to the show right now. Dear Zoo Crew, more Toggle, feet picks please.

Steeeve: I am still Steve.

Aqua: I’m Aqua, and you’ve almost finished listening to Zooier Than Thou! Stay defiant fellow zoos and be kind to one another. It’s the sexiest, zooiest thing you can do. We’ll see you next time. You feel like howling at the moon.

All: Awoo!

Aqua: That was pretty good!